Thank you for listening to the Making Lemonade Podcast!
Please remember to subscribe, share, review, rate and, if you can, support the making of this podcast by donating here on BMAC, or by becoming a member of the Lemonade Makers. You'll find information on how to do that at the top of this page.
I'd love to hear from you - your thoughts and reflections on what you've heard (things you've liked/haven't liked, things you'd like to hear more/less of), your own experiences, and suggestions for people who you think would make brilliant guests.
You can contact me by emailing [email protected] or by messaging me on...
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Estelle’s Links:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIF_I188p1o&list=RDkIF_I188p1o&start_radio=1
If you've been affected by anything you've heard in this episode, please take care of yourselves, and consider visiting (or contacting) any of these organisations:
www.mind.org.uk
https://www.samaritans.org
TRANSCRIPT
Hey, lemonade makers -haven't called you that in a while. I know. so just in case you missed it, I'd start with that. How are you all? Are you all good? unusually for me, I'm recording this not first thing in the morning or last thing at night, which is why I probably sound a bit more [00:00:30] awake than I do usually,
So, uh, yeah, don't worry, I haven't, you know, I haven't eaten seven bags of Skittles or anything, So today's episode, oh my word,
making Lemonade isn't a celebrity podcast. Right? Uh, hopefully that makes sense. You know, it, it isn't about out talking to famous people. That's not what it is. It's about talking to anybody. Who has a story to [00:01:00] tell or an experience to share of stuff that's been tough in their life and the ways in which they've been able to take something good from that or make something positive from those negatives.
I know people who listen to this podcast regularly. You know, all of this, but I'm, I'm gonna say it anyway. And it's not important to me who that person is. What is important to me is that I talk to lots of different people from different backgrounds,
and [00:01:30] yes, some of them have been famous names, famous faces, and in our case, famous voices.
But they're no more important for me than the people you haven't heard of and the stories you haven't heard before. I love all of these conversations. I'm being so honest with you about this. I adore having these conversations and something I say in today's and it's absolutely true is that Always, whenever I'm having these conversations, doing these [00:02:00] recordings, there's always something that speaks directly to something that's been in my life at that time, something I've been thinking or experiencing myself. And, and that's absolutely true today as well. I have to tell you that when I was asked if I might want to interview today's guest, I couldn't believe it. this is a person whose music I and my family have been listening to for years and years and years. In fact, we talk about one of the first times we started [00:02:30] listening to her music. ah, so I'm not gonna pretend for a second that I wasn't completely starstruck. By meeting this person and having this conversation, because I am, and you'll probably hear that the person I'm speaking to today on Making Lemonade is the singer, Estelle.
I've got to admit something else. I've met quite a few famous, like, really famous people now in, in doing the work that I do and [00:03:00] sometimes. They don't quite live up to your expectations of them and, what and who you hope they'll be.
But Estelle was, is. Just amazing. It was the nicest conversation you'll hear. And I've left, I've left pretty much all of our conversation in, you'll hear, but we talked about all sorts of things, including, um, cocoa Pops, screwdrivers, um, making the [00:03:30] text bigger on your phone. And right at the beginning, the fact that if I don't press record, as soon as I start the call, even before the other person has joined, I forget.
It's time for the episode. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Here we go.
I should say I've just pressed record because if I don't do that, my middle-aged brain forgets.
I understand completely. Oh, [00:04:00] geez. Honestly,
it's just getting worse. Absolutely getting worse.
I'm constantly walking into rooms and going, why did I walk into this room?
It's true What they say after 40, everything is like, what? Yeah. Uh, it's a, it's a brand new world. It's a brand new world. I'm learning. My latest battle is do I need glasses?
Oh.
And oh my goodness, I need glasses and no, I don't need glasses.
I can't see for the first hour in the morning. Anyhow, I'm here. So
I've, [00:04:30] I've succumbeded to glasses, I've let glasses into my life. But do you know what I did a few weeks ago? And this is, this is like, this is such a major thing for me. I increased the text size on my phone.
I know it's a big step, isn't it?
And here we are. Here we are. Here we are.
It felt so wrong. And then as soon as I'd done it, I thought, why have I been, why have I been trying to battle on for so long with that tiny text?
Just and now like, I feel like if I do that I have to get a protective screen.[00:05:00]
'cause I, I don't need anyone else seeing how big they are. How big It's
You do that, don't you? You sort of shield it from people just in case they can. Yeah. Oh, your text is big. Don't
look how big. Don't judge me. Sh but whatever. Here we are, I've got a
friend, I've got a friend who's text is so big, they can only fit about two words per screen on a, it's madness.
They might wanna go get that. Like Lasik. LASIK or something. Like, I, I that's something to consider.
I think so. I think so. Should we do, [00:05:30] I know we've only just met, should we stage an intervention for my friend?
Let's do it. I'm with it. I'll show up. Put me on Zoom.
I'll do, we'll do it.
We'll do it.
Estelle, you are one of those people that weirdly, I feel like I know because of your music and you must get that a lot.
I do that. People go, you are Estelle. I mean, you're Estelle, you know, you've been sort of in our lives for so long now. If someone doesn't know who you are and doesn't know what, what you do, how do you, how do you [00:06:00] introduce yourself to them?
Oh, I, I, I, I try not to introduce with what I do. That's first thing I just, I'm, you know, hi Elle, and then like 15, 20 minutes into the conversation they might put it together.
Or I was out this weekend with one of my friends and, um, we were just all talking and, um, and I was listening to her talk, and then I feel like two hours into the get together, she was like, this weekend's been great. I've met [00:06:30] Oprah and Elle, I just, I, and she had a hole and I was just sitting there going like, wait, you met Oprah?
You know? So to me it's like, it's never, it's never a given that somebody's going to have a clue as to what I do for a living. Or anything, but it's nice when the reaction is nice to it. Yeah.
You know,
like, oh, it, it means that I'm on my bath, I'm doing the thing that I'm supposed to be doing to me. Oh, and also life, people's lives are subjective.
We're all doing a million things and increasingly [00:07:00] more these days.
Yeah. At
any given time, experiencing many different timelines from wildly different trajectories that some of us will never touch. And some of us have touched for three seconds, ain't like it, got back out of it. And so, my relevance and all of that, I don't take granted that some people hold it dear and hold it beautifully and in a nice light.
And I also, I don't expect them to if they don't need it. Like it's not for everything and everybody. But I, my point and I think increasingly with my new [00:07:30] album or just with my new album, the point is to just be light wherever you are. If they take it as like, I'm happy about that. If they take it as questioning, well then it's meant to be a question in their lives.
Then I'll take it as that too. It's fine. Everything's okay.
That's such a good approach. That's such a healthy approach. I remember I think one of the biggest lessons in my life, and it only happened like in the past five years, I reckon, was coming to terms with the fact that some people aren't gonna be for me and I'm not [00:08:00] gonna be for them.
Yeah.
It's, and
because like, who told us that everybody was meant to love everybody or like, who's meant to love you? Like who's meant to accept you, per se. Were meant, like, that's, that's the guide, that's the guideline. But who, who looks at the, who looks at the guidelines when they pull out an IKEA thing versus who just goes to put it together and then realize they have to go back to the guidelines.
But like, you don't look at no one pulls something outta a box and goes, let me read the thing. Right. We all just kind of be, I know what [00:08:30] this does. I've seen it on tv. Let's just do it. I've seen a picture of it. I know what to do. Yeah.
It
can't be hard. And then you realize I might guideline, I might need a, the direction book.
Hold on. But our natural thing isn't to just go to the guidelines, our natural thing to pull it out and say, I can do this. Yeah. That's what we do with humans, you know, like, that's fine. Everything will be okay. Like I've
got this, I've got this. I can do this. Yeah.
Everything is exactly as I see it in the world.
And then we get to be humans and get around other humans and they're [00:09:00] like, may, maybe not May. Maybe it's different, maybe it's not. Maybe it needs a screwdriver instead of a flathead. You know, like these, these are Phillips instead of a flathead screwdriver. I've been using the wrong tools. And then you realize you're not put everything in everyone.
Not everything is meant to fit in the right hole. I'm screwing a, a bottle into a light bulb. You know what I mean? Like, that can't be good. Stuff like that,
That's liquid and electricity that don't do that.
You would be surprised how many people approach life like that. They're liquid, walking up to electricity going, we fit [00:09:30] together.
Right.
This'll be fine,
this'll be fine each, we don't kill each other. Yeah, I feel you. It's, but it's like once you get to that kind of like actual consciousness and like walking through life, like, yeah, nah, this ain't it. It gives, it opens up a whole nother chamber of acceptance and surrender and just, you gotta let people be.
It's really because you want 'em to let you be.
It's really liberating, isn't it?
Mm-hmm.
That moment that you realize that and that you go, oh, I don't need to, [00:10:00]
yeah. I don't need,
I don't need to bend every sort of sin you and synapse within me to, to make you like me and to be the best person that you've met, you know, today.
Yeah. It, it does. It's like fu Utah. That's a lot of work for no reason. It's a lot of work for no reason. I think one of the best ways I've learned that. One of the, one of the best ways I learned that was coming from, it started young, that training began with me young. I, I'm arguably the slight [00:10:30] oddball in the family.
Just in my choices. I mean, but then the more I realized that, the more I've grown up, the more I realized actually no, my granny wasn't oddball and maybe her great, her mother wasn't odd ball. And I, you know, I start seeing the traits, you know what I mean? I'm like, oh, maybe not such an oddball. But at the time I was very much like no one else hears the music guy.
No one else can separate the sound. Can you what? It's just me.
Wow.
All right. [00:11:00] Alright, cool. I'm gonna be the widow in the room. I'm gonna go in the bedroom and listen to music. I was non, I was on end and just ignore everything, but also be able to do impeccable homework. I was also that kid that was like, how are you, how do you know this shit when you don't even, when you don't study?
I was that kid. So
did you get home from school and do your homework straight away?
No, I would delay it to the last minute 'cause I was listening to music. Thank God for that. I, I still knew it. And that was a frustrating point for everything and everyone involved [00:11:30] because I would just do it on my time.
Okay. Once I was in it, I was in it. And I would go to school and know everything, or I don't know if I knew everything or I just knew when to say the right thing and when to shut up one of the two. But it appeared as though I knew everything. You know, maybe I did, I don't know, but point me and I never got shit grades.
I think you had access to that guidebook.
I, I believe so. I believe so. I think it was, it was above me early. Yeah. It was above me. Now [00:12:00]early, but it was very much like there was a lot of anomalies, like, or just differences, but I was never made to feel different, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
But I, I got to that guide of you're not the same and you don't move the same as everybody else.
People, some people don't like that. And it's nothing to do with you. That's not with you. That's, that's their version of life. And I need you to stop taking it so personal.
Yeah. You
know, I think I hit like my teens and my mom kind of gave me that, and she gave me that by standing in solidarity [00:12:30] with us when for some reason our pastor didn't like that we we knew all the church songs and had all the church kids go in, in a certain direction.
Phrase it like this, if we were doing all the secular songs, taking r and b songs and flipping 'em to gospel, she didn't like that we were doing it so well, you know, and that was more to do with her than it was to do us. And so my mom was like, cool, we won't be over there. My daughter doesn't have to go to this church if she don't want to.
And my kids don't have to be a part of what you're selling anymore because it's not rooted in God. It's rooted in [00:13:00] religion and control, and my mom realized that early and stood by us. So that let me know that it's okay to have a, a differing point of view. And even if it feels world ending at the time for certain people, okay.
And the world continued, you know, and we'll be all right.
You mean the sky didn't fall in?
The sky? Indeed did not fall in, in fact, for me, it expanded. The sky got bigger. I was like, oh, and it still didn't leave behind everything [00:13:30] I'd learned. I just applied it differently, you know, and found it differently, which was a blessing when I think about it.
'cause if I'd stayed constricted to the rules and regulations of what that looks and felt like per that pastor, I would be the person you see today. I wouldn't be in this freedom, I would not be able to translate the way I translate, music, songs, lyrics, performances, nothing.
I do, I get that.
I grew up in a Catholic family, Irish Catholic family. You can't [00:14:00] have a surname like O Sullivan and not be an Irish Catholic. It's against the law. And um, and I always kind of felt that constraint as well, you know, and that, that control that was exercised in a, in such a, exactly, such a bizarre way. You know, it's kind of, oh no, this is just how things are.
You know, this is, yeah. Oh. You, you have those thoughts. Oh no, that's a sin I'm afraid. And oh, you want to do that? But those thoughts
are a sin. How do, how does somebody like [00:14:30] quantify that? Sorry, the stuff for me dear.
I know. So I'm it sounds to me like your, your music came out of that world, but then sort of took on its own on, on its own life.
Would that be accurate?
Yeah, it came out of, um, the structure of that world, but then it, it got its freedom living in the actual world with some of those guidelines as my, is my manual. And I had to, like, as I went along, I was rewriting the [00:15:00] manual per se. I was like editing, okay, now I need a flathead instead of a, instead of a Phillips, you know, now I need like one of those Ikea wrenches instead of any of those things.
And now I need a power, as I went along, it kind of just evolved. And so I was rewriting the manual and editing the manual per se as I went along. And I found the core thing was none of this comes to you by mistake. None of this is, um, it's not. I don't wanna say it's by some grand design, but it is a [00:15:30]design that you and, and whoever you believe in, the higher spirit put out in this world before you got here.
You know, it said, okay, this is the journey. This is the one you're gonna take. Turn up, have fun with it. And so all the people or the things or the circumstances that kind of came, have come along the way, I've been learning how to, to work with them, you know? Yeah. Like, I've only been on earth this, in this body, in this, this incarnation one time.
This is my first time here. I don't, you know, so I give myself a little bit more grace with all of that too. [00:16:00] But there's very much like you learn, I'm learning along the way. I've gotten a lot more grace for things and people and everything, including myself when I realized that yeah, they've only been their age this time one time two, and, um, they have no clue.
Much like I don't. Like a 10-year-old, you know, like I think about that every time I do a mistake or somebody around me does a mistake, I'm like, yeah, you've only been this age one time in this body. This isn't like you stuck your hand in the fire knowing [00:16:30] it'd be hot, and if you did, let's talk about that.
Or maybe we should have some, you talk to somebody about that, did it not hurt the first time? It was not, that wasn't gonna change now that, that thing, that tangible thing wasn't gonna change. Yeah. But there are other things that I've learned to give physical, emotional, mental, spiritual grace to like, ah, dang, I, I did that same repeat action and I know it was terrible the first time.
I just did it another way. Oh, dang it. Why do I keep doing that? And then you go down the therapy line [00:17:00] and, ask yourself these tough questions and that helps you close cycles. So I give a lot of grace and I give a lot of space and time and energy, yeah. To myself and ergo to other people.
It's, you know,
it's, I dunno if this is your experience, but I often find that we're so much more willing to be supportive and make allowances for other people than we are ourselves. You know, we're so, we're so much more willing to say, Hey, you need to give yourself a break [00:17:30] because you know you are doing the best you can with what you've got in mm-hmm.
In, in this moment, in these circumstances. Yeah. But we don't, we don't often say that to ourselves.
I say it to myself so frequently now and exactly why. It's just is said. Like, for instance, I'll be walking around and talking to my friend and be like, you need to take a break. You haven't slept past 11 in years.
Then I called myself having the opportunity to sleep past 11 the other day. Oh. And I took it and I laid in [00:18:00] the bed and I scrolled and I took nap. I, and I wanna tell you the naps, the 15 minutes in that 8:00 AM to 1112 or 12:20 PM get out the bed. The naps felt like I was asleep for hours. The 20 minute naps I was taking in that period felt like I was asleep for hours.
And my body was like, oh, thank you girl. It's been so long. I
needed
this. What? The, I have so much energy, I feel like, like this week I'm back on it. I'm working out. I'm [00:18:30] like, let's go. And I realized it was a thing of like, I used to, when I'm in promo mode on, I'm working on promoting an album.
We go from city to city, coast to coast. There's not too much time for sleeping. It's almost like a, uh, a, a badge of honor that you sleep for five to six hours.
Yeah.
I refuse that shit now. And so now when I travel, I'll take a week, I'll sleep in late, I'll get to the thing that needs to be done, but I will sleep in late and give my body as [00:19:00] much rest and time to recuperate from one being compressed on a plane for almost 12 hours.
Two, from having to get up and go wherever I landed from morning to night. Three, just mental and emotional, spiritual, physical, just like let it recuperate. Yeah. It's not that you're damaging your body, but you're pushing it right outside of its normal range. And so it needs sleep and it needs laying down doing nothing, and your brain needs cutting off.
For me, that's [00:19:30] meditating per se. It, it just needs an, it just needs a different mode for a while until you can get back into, okay, I can, I can formulate, I can function, we often don't give ourselves that because you're supposed to work really, really, really, really hard All, all the time.
Yeah.
Even though you've done the thing. It's almost like self-sabotage it in another word, because you're people pleasing other people's expectations of who you're supposed to be and how you're supposed to get it when no one else is around to please What, [00:20:00] meanwhile your body's out here, like, girl, it's been four years of you doing this, uh, and you are the oldest daughter cut it out.
Like, or all the oldest daughter, the idioms. All of them. Okay. Hi, I am, I am the oldest daughter, poster child. I've knocked a few those things off the list, but I had to check myself. So as much as I'm saying to my friends, sleep in, take, you know, take five minute breaks. Whenever I say that, I'm like, oh, I'm telling myself I need to sleep in, take five minute breaks.
Cool. Got it, got it. Shh. We've
[00:20:30] gotta listen, we've gotta listen to that, haven't we? We have to listen to it.
Yeah.
Because our bodies and our minds, they know what's best for us.
For sure they do.
I, I really believe that.
I agree. I agree. I'm very involved in if you don't work, nothing else works.
Yeah. So true. So, so true. Yeah. So I, um, I'd love to talk about how you've arrived at the place you're in now [00:21:00] and what the journey to that has been like. I don't, I hope this isn't annoying for you, but when people say your name, of course there's one song that immediately jumps into people's minds that huge success she had with American Boy.
Mm-hmm. Um, I should say, and this isn't to make you feel old. It makes me feel old, but I don't want you to feel old. It was number one when my son was born. Aw. And we bought, we bought, um, from my daughter who was born [00:21:30] a couple of years earlier. And that was crazy by Niles Barkley when she was born. Yeah.
And then it was, and then it was your song when our son was born and we bought the single because we wanted them to have that, you know, when they, when they get older and every time it comes on the radio, he knows it's his special song, you know? Oh. Um,
he so happy. That makes me so happy. Oh my word. Oh, G I'm
glad it, I'm glad it's not annoying for you because I No,
not at all.
No. This is the reason we made the song like [00:22:00] that the song is, is meant to be about joy and memory and lifestyle. And I, when I tell you, I, I pray about everything, but that was one in my, in my infant stages of learning how to pray about the things you want. Not just the big things, but every single thing.
Or talk, talk to your spirit or talk to God, or whoever you believe in. I, I give that because, you know, everyone's on the same channel as me. Yeah. But we all, you know, have our things. But it was literally one of the words was like, I just want people to have this for their life and for their kids' lives, and for their kids', kids [00:22:30] lives.
And, and I want 'em just to feel joy whenever they hear this record. Like, and that was, that's the point. So however you get it or however it points to joy for you, or however it points to a special moment, I'm so happy. And what's more joyful than the birth of a child? Oh yeah. You know, like, like it being that point.
That's amazing. That makes me happy.
Well, it's, you know, I know even if it weren't the song that was number one when he was born it would, it would've given us joy and still gives us joy now. And so, so [00:23:00] you have this amazing, huge success with that and obviously with other stuff around that as well.
But am I right in saying that there, there've been some harder times in your career
I would say just resetting moments and, and this is stuff I don't talk about, but I'll talk about in the book.
It, this has been happening since the very first album. For me, this is the kind of like the, the values of it have happened since Shine.
Yeah.
And it was all kind of, I realized just kind [00:23:30] of redirecting me back to myself and back to my truth, so if I was, again, the idea of pushing, I'm realistically hard pushing myself.
I'm realistically hard to be a superhuman to get this one thing, and it feels like a victory. Half of it feels like a amazing view for a buzz victory. And then the other half's kind of hollow because I'm like sitting there going, of course I did it to myself. Now what? And the other half is me saying, yes, girl, you did it.
It was [00:24:00] working. It was great. But I'm echoing everybody else's thoughts and feelings more than I'm echoing my own. 'cause I knew I was gonna do it, you know? It was just like this wild, why am I sitting in this inbetweenie space with a lot of things and with a lot with that entire feeling. And then the decisions I made were driven out of, again, people pleasing and trying to just be the thing that people thought that I should be.
Because how dare I go and get this big thing that I prayed for? I expected to happen. How dare it [00:24:30] actually happen? You know? Yeah. So be as humble and as quiet and as grateful, and as tuck your head down as you possibly can about it. When I should have been like, great, now let's go get more, or let's go do bigger, or let's go have an impact.
And I felt like I was, the, the, the things I were doing, the things that I would, I'm trying to phrase this right. The choices I would make were based on that self-deprecation more than they were based on celebrating a thing that was the truth for me, which was I prayed [00:25:00] by it and it happened.
I like, I asked for it and absolutely came, you know? Yeah. As it should. Which, and I, and this is when I say, when I say when I made this album. When I made this album, stay Alta. Your life is in you. The thing that you are born to do is in you. Stop making excuses for it. Stop dumbing it down. Like stand in it, be in it.
Be bright in it. It's okay. There's people that do it. They just tell you that you are not supposed to do it. There. There are arguably many people that stand in their, in their life [00:25:30] every single day, and you don't do it. It's, it is immoral. It's, you know, meanwhile they're the ones, if they had the choice, they would run to the moon with it, you know, run to the sun with it, like, go, and I was kind of living in that one. I just didn't like, I just, at one point I just kind of hit a, the pause, but, well, my body hit the pause button for me and was like, yeah, we're done. We're good. You know, like my, I couldn't sing the way I wanted to sing anymore. I lost like the joy for it. It was all on autopilot.[00:26:00]
And then my actual life was just like, things were just like going up crazy. Brett broke up with somebody right in the middle of making an album called Lovers Rock, which was. Actually reflecting my parents, like wrapping up a cycle of my parents, me trying to replicate my parents' lives.
Yeah.
And their story when I'm, I'm their first daughter, it was just like I found myself writing the same songs as I did on Shine and on the 18th day, and I said to myself, so is wrong.
Like, I'm repeating a cycle at the end. This [00:26:30] cycle. I can't be going through the same things over and over. And I about the same things, especially when I give it five years. What cycles am I not ending? This has to stop. Yeah. And so like, after Lovers Rock comes out and I'm in the middle of that, after that tour ends, my voice is like, yeah, I'm good.
I'm straight. Wait, no. At the beginning of that tour, my voice was over it. By the end of that tour, I was just like, I just wanna be high every day and everyone to leave me alone, you know? And if I high, I mean smoke some weed nothing else. That's cool. And I [00:27:00] just wanna just not, I just wanna disassociate, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Essentially. And just essentially it, it was kind of like, people say that's a gateway drug. I don't believe in it being a gateway drug, but it was just experimenting in things that had been, I've been told, was so terrible, and not just smoking smoking weed or anything. It was like, let me go to therapy.
That was so terrible. Let me, um, challenge what I've been raised with that was so terrible. Like, there was so many [00:27:30] things that I realized I've been conditioned to believe that were the absolute opposite for me. And again, leaning into the, you are the odd ball, you are the one that these rules do not apply to, by the way, you know?
And once I, I took a bit more control over my actual life. Everything kind of came flooding back. The songs, the memories, the reminding myself, realizing that this doesn't, singing isn't the obstacle for me. Music is never an obstacle for me. It's not that hard for me. [00:28:00] It really is a two hour process.
Everything that comes out of it is pretty great. You know, like, and stop, like, stop doubting, stop it, stop it, stop it. I stopped putting the gates on myself. I stopped believing the people that told me that I should just be humble. I started celebrating and you can hear it in all the songs. And so to me that's, that's how, that's where, how the, the sadness translated how the, not the sadness, but how the lull or the, the lows that we're supposed to learn how to dance in, uh, per Louis Armstrong [00:28:30] told that to.
Quincy Jones was supposed to learn how to dance in the lows. The, the valleys, I should say. Yeah. That's how I, that's to me how I got, how the valleys I learned to dance in them. While it was rising, while I was kicking up the dust and building the next mountain, you know, like I was dancing the entire way and it felt good.
It feels good with this album, but this has happened maybe before Shine. This happened before the 18th day. So at this point, it's almost like a marker. Whenever some things fall apart for me. Oh great. You albums coming. Here we go. [00:29:00] Here we go. Hard to record. But, life cycles and all of that. It is part of what it is.
People will call it life cycles. Yeah, Hey everyone.
Just before we get back to the episode, I wonder if I could ask you a favor.
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I know that feeling so well. You know, whenever I've been through something [00:30:30] and then, that, that, that surge almost for me anyway, of, yeah. I need to do something with this. I need this not to stop as being this really shit thing that's happened or is happening.
I'm gonna make it, it is gonna work for me if I have to have it. It's gonna, it's gonna do something
great. It's gonna be great. And I listened in the middle of it, I was content to not do music anymore as like a, the create songs as the, the main thing I was tend to be like, I have great legacy. I have five other albums.
[00:31:00] I, I'm good to go. I can perform these songs and just go out and do shows and stay at Lovers Rock, and the reggae album and I'm, I'm straight wherever rock go. Like, I'm hate money on the royalties. I, my, that business is great. I have a radio show on Apple Music. Everything is wonderful. Like I actually have amazing streams of income.
I'm good to go. This isn't, I'm not doing this for the money, um, per se. And so. But the music, the songs wouldn't stop coming. And if I'm waking up in the middle of the [00:31:30] night and I'm humming the song and I wake up in the morning humming it, and it is, that's, that was kind of like my bad signal.
Like, all right, girl. Like, it's not done, you're not done yet. You have to give this to, and then it just reminds me that, yeah, I'm, I'm just a channel. I'm not, you know, I'm not the maker of this and I just, I get in position and I just play my part and I thank God, I thank my angel team.
I thank the universe. I think my Holy Spirit, I thank my ancestors for choosing me, first of all, [00:32:00] but the second of all, putting me through the fire so that I could give what needs to be given in the form that it needs to be given in. 'cause I couldn't have did it eight years ago. I couldn't have did this seven years ago, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so, I. Weird. I've, so I've been doing this now for, I've been recording for almost a year for, for, for this podcast. And I think we're up to about sort of 17, 18 episodes out now. But almost every time I [00:32:30] have a conversation with somebody, something comes out of that conversation that really, really chimes with, with something else happening in my life at the moment.
Yeah. And what you're describing there about being a channel for Yeah. For something bigger. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm exploring that so much at the moment. Yeah. Um, and yeah, I, again, I completely get that I the times when I get most excited about the things I create are the times when I go, I've got no idea where [00:33:00] that just came from.
Yeah. When it takes me by surprise.
Yep. Yep. And, and it's like, and you are talking about that, you know, the feeling of you're just like, oh, I was. I was literally just sitting there and I'm just running my mouth and all of a sudden this thing happens.
Yeah.
Uh, or this, these words come out and everyone in the room's like, Ooh.
And I'm just like, what? That what, how? Huh? What'd I [00:33:30] say? You know, like, it's every, it stuns me every single time and I'm, I'm always just like, yo, I, I feel like I'm 15 at all times. I don't know shit. Like, I walk through life. Like, I'm a 20, like, I'm a 20-year-old. Like, I guess
that's sweet. Oh, that's
real.
Okay.
I've been 17 forever in my head. Seven. I've never got beyond 17 Never happened.
Like, what are we talking about? How did we get to be in our forties? Time, I guess, but like, also what? Huh. [00:34:00] And so something that people think is wise comes out of my face. Or out of a song. And I'm always just like, oh, thank God that wasn't me.
I know that wasn't me. 'cause uh, last week I was trying to, you know, I was trying to do some absurd shit in my house and not read the, not read the, um, 'cause the, let me tell you, the not reading the manual, it's real for me. And then I go back to it and be like, ah, damn it. And I do it every time. Um, I'm that person.
Like, we all think we can [00:34:30] look on Instagram and, and build the thing. I'm not person. YouTube. YouTube,
you can learn anything on YouTube. YouTube
University. I'll barely look at YouTube University, but have to go back to it and be like, wait, how they say? Okay, so I was supposed to measure this before I built it.
Oh, dammit, I'm gonna take this whole shit back. This is who I am, and I'm com I'm okay with this. Not comfortable with it, but I'm okay with this. Okay. And it's just stuff like that that has me like, look girl sometimes like you could be [00:35:00] the most. I phrase it like this, God will use whoever he wants.
Like, like you don't have to be the most scholarly, indeed, it is always great to study and observe and know who you know, but you don't have to be the most articulate, the most scholarly. You don't have to, you just have to be an open, willing vessel per se, you know, a channel. Yeah. Oh, if that makes sense.
And I know that for good, for lights, I, I am that, and I, and I pray to say that, you know, in, in the right, in [00:35:30] applicable areas, I never wanna do it for bad. I never wanna do it for self grande and shit. I just wanna do it to give whoever needs the information, information, you know,
I do. I've been listening.
To stay outer in, in the car, driving, driving around. It's wonderful. Mm-hmm. It's so wonderful. The, it's perfect such energy to it. Thank you. And the, the song that I've had on Loop, and I do, I do this, I go, yeah, I need to hear that again. I need to hear that again. And I find, and [00:36:00] my, my wife and my kids, she's go, no, you can't just play the same song over and over again.
What I do. And it's Roses Now's the time.
Yay. It's
the one that I've been playing on the loop and the lyrics to that are so, so captivating for me. I had to let go of the pain, had to let go of the things that I was born with when I came. Yeah. Where did that come from?
Oh goodness. Short story.
So like I said, around 2018 off [00:36:30] of Lovers Rock. I learned so much about my family that I didn't know and I was 38, so like, I guess it was time. I'd been like digging at my parents for the maybe three years before that. But formulating it all and putting it all together was like around 38. And so I realized I was named after my great grandma.
The more questions I asked about her, the more I realized her story. It was, I was just told that, you know, she raised my mom from one, [00:37:00] is it one to zero to no, three to 12 years old. And she was just kind of this figure in my mom's life. But the more I asked about her, the more I was just like, my mom would always say, you remind me of her so much.
It's almost like looking at her great-grandma and like she had this sort of like motherly reference for me in a way that to me was like, no, but you are my mom. Stop. But I, I realized I could get away with talking to her with authority. In some ways [00:37:30] and not dis not at all disrespectfully, but like, let's have a conversation.
Yeah. And you know, with all reverence is my mom, I need to know this. And the more I did it, the more I found out about my great grandma and there was some good things and there was some not so good things. But also I give it grace because of the time, if you gotta think, 1920s, 1930s Africa was around the time when she was living.
You know, she had my grandma with one of her youngest children at, you know, in the 1930s. And if that lady had [00:38:00] been alive for 20, 30 years before that, married twice, you know, I find that she was married twice, all these things three times. It's just like so much more. I found out about her having not known about her my whole life, but I was named after her.
And so it was just like opened up a whole can of whoa oh my family's. My family is interesting and what the, what, you know, like, and so there was some good things and then there was some [00:38:30]things that I found out that were not true. You know, I had to put four and seven together and be like, oh.
So that was a lie that you, that everyone was just told for to kind of keep things rolling. 'cause it was too much to uncover all the rest of it. Got it. And that's what I mean when I say that I was given with my name like my great-granddad and like my granddad, it is my and my grandma. Their relationship wasn't what we thought it was.
We just knew he was gone after a certain period of time. But when we found out the why, 'cause we're adults now, right? Yeah. It was just like, oh, we [00:39:00] carry this man's name, kind of don't want it. So things like that, that associated with pain and associated with trauma and associated with learned behavior that was sabotaging me, myself, and my life and my choices.
It just became a thing for me, like, yeah, I can't do that. I can't keep living like this. This isn't what it is. And so this song is an ode to doing the work of recalibrating your life. And just the continuation of it is, it never stops, but it's also, [00:39:30] as I think about it, it's and it's, it's three parts to it.
One is the old to doing the work to yourself, recalibrating your life.
Two,
it's also patting myself in the back, and reminding myself that, yeah, like, your choices are correct. For instance, my grandma, my favorite flower is a rose. I'm like, I, I buy roses every week for myself. Anyone knows to get me roses?
Get me roses. It's okay. I will take 'em all. I love them. They're great. Um, purple, red or white. My favorite colors white was my [00:40:00] great-grandma's favorite color. My grandma who passed away last year, her favorite. I used to send her red roses whenever I could. And she was so delighted every single time. You know, I think it was love that she missed getting from, in her relationships that she'd never seen.
But, you know, we gave it to her consistently. We would always give her physical, I was always send her bunches of red roses. And so red roses, white roses was my favorite thing. And then somebody gave me purple roses one time and I lost my mind. I was like, yeah, it's crazy. Purple roses. [00:40:30] That's crazy. So those was my three favorite colors.
Roses are gorgeous flowers.
But it also spoke to the fact that like, the healing process keeps going. If you keep pulling down the Rose's power, it just keeps opening. Right. You're, you're never done with healing. It just keeps happening, right? Yeah. And at one point I was kind of like, I just wanna throw all the shit out, but I have to keep going.
And it maybe came in the middle of the pandemic, which is right about when I wrote this song and the actual day of coming up with this song. [00:41:00] I was listening to D Nice as we all were on in the Pandemic, on the Panini, maybe it was like his third or fourth broadcast. And he had like a lot of soul legends, like listening in and chiming in on the chat and he was playing all of their classics.
And I just said to myself, there was not at the end of the, the period of like the panini of d Nice playing every single night. We didn't listen to not one record from beyond 2010. He didn't [00:41:30] play, not one. He played records from the seventies up to 2010 and back to back to back. And we were so happy. And I thought to myself, some of these people, some of these artists never had the chance to shot the open road that a lot of pop and RB artists have today.
But we stand on their shoulders and we don't remember them and we don't recall their names and we don't give them props and we don't tell 'em how incredible they are. So roses is my dedication to every single one of those [00:42:00] artists from the sixties, the seventies, the eighties, who shoulders we stand on that.
We forget their names. It's like, give them their roses. You know? I'm so proud of the love you've given to though they deny your voices in the night. Now is your time to shine. You know, like the, like when they told you that you could only have this amount, we didn't forget you. I didn't forget you. You know this.
This music is for you too. This music is for everything you had to. Endure, yeah. Push through with a smile on your [00:42:30] face. From oppression to, to racism to rights, to just your, your familial circumstances to having kids. Now, you can't have a career to, you are a certain type of man, or your kind of person doesn't do this kind of thing.
And this isn't just black people. I'm talking across all boards, like
Yeah.
People who are in the, in the community, in the L-G-B-Q-T-I-A community who were never able to just live their life. They were forced [00:43:00] to, live a different type of life, but created some songs and music that, you know, we stand on that we say, these are the bedrocks of our culture.
What do you mean? You know, and like Freddie Mercury to Lou Vandross. Early Elton John to, you know, it goes. And so my, and these are the bigger names, so imagine how many were also out at the same time that didn't get that shot because they refused to hide because they refused to be, [00:43:30] so I think about those things and as much as I think about like I said, women's rights and just artists who were just brilliant and had one song and that was it, you know, somebody, the label didn't care for them anymore, so they were gone. But that song is the one that your mom played Yeah. Every single morning and got her out of bed and got your dad working wherever he was working, or had your mom or has your cousins and they're ready to start their businesses and you get to live the life you live because of this music.
Alchemists. So [00:44:00] this song Roses means a lot of things, but it stemmed from just the self work.
What a beautiful story, what a beautiful, beautiful story of creation and, and, how wonderful that this song celebrates All of that. I'm gonna listen to it with
Yes.
Yeah, I am.
Yeah.
I, I, I really am.
How does it hit, how does it feel when you hear it or when you are singing it? [00:44:30]
Oh, my days, it is like the biggest release. I just be, I'd be out here like twirling around, whether you like it or not. Twirling I haven't performed it too many times and I feel like the last time I performed it, I was out of breath 'cause I was running around, but.
I just, I like, I literally just twirl. 'cause it makes me happy to sing the just to sing that in itself. Yeah. Just like, it reminds me of like being 13 years old on the bus listening to Ella Fitzgerald. [00:45:00] 'cause that's one of her riffs to the core. Like, it don't, it don't make no sense where that came from, but it came. But that's Ella Fitzgerald and I, I think to myself now, was that one of my great grandma's favorite artists?
Like, is that me channeling her? I don't, I don't know. 'cause I can't, I can't ask her. Right. And my mom, they don't have any recollection of what her favorite songs are. They were 12, you know? Yeah. So I just think to myself, imagine, I just imagine her kind of floating around singing at Ella Fitzgerald, and I wonder on her travels, when she was that [00:45:30] young, did she meet her? Like what was that one of her favorite artists that she'd met or she'd seen live or. I think I want to know those things. So like when I'm singing that, I'm singing that with all of that in the back of my soul. Like, oh, because it didn't come I was 13 listening to Ella Fitzgerald.
That doesn't come from just nowhere. Like that comes from somewhere in your bloodline. It's in there, it trickled in, so those, that's how I feel. That's my personal con. And then also just the fun of the song. Like it's a disco classic [00:46:00] first choice. What, you know, like a love thing being the, the whole point, the ain't playing no games.
It is a love thing. Yeah. Um, the original is such a bop, I hopefully I get to perform it with one of the singers, Rachel, uh, miss Rochelle, I should say. Not Rachel, miss Rochelle in a couple weeks in Chicago. I'm like geeked to meet her. I just, I kind, I like I'm still starstruck. We're getting to meet the legends.
Yeah. Yeah. [00:46:30] Yeah. I'm excited that the song fills me with joy, as you can hear. That's the
word. That's the word that's been in my head all through you talking about that, which is joy. Mm-hmm.
Absolute
joy. Yeah. It feels like you're all about that at the moment. Yeah. About finding the joy and, and embodying the joy.
Yep. That's it. 'cause, not 'cause what else is there? But like, doesn't it feel good though? Yeah. Like looking for the, the [00:47:00] darkness is dark or pull up on you. Like you ain't gotta worry about that. It'll show its face. But seeking joy and standing enjoy, like extending the lifespan of joy in your everyday life.
Yeah. And, and to do it, all you have to do is stand in it. Is be in it. Like is hold the feeling.
Yeah.
That's something else that, that takes some mastery. That takes some, I don't, takes some mastery. It actually just takes a simple act of just being present to me. Yeah. That's how I do it. You know? I get that.[00:47:30]
That's how I find more joy. I just, yeah. If I'm feeling good about something, they could be simple as me. Oh. I found, I remember the, I really like Cocoa Krispies growing up and I have been housing, is
it Cocoa Pops? Right. But Coco I still love Cocoa Pops.
Okay. They're sitting on my counter right now 'cause I've been house them every night.
Like just reminding myself how much I loved Cocoa Pops.
That's a good time. Well, they turned the milk chocolatey, as we all know. Exact.
That's the exact reasoning. Okay. I [00:48:00] have to go get no extra sugar. Like, because now we're grown. I have to go get no extra sugar in it no more. I can just,
and you don't need the chocolate milkshake after it because you've got one.
You have to drink the milk afterwards. You've already got one to write a passage. It is what it is. Those are joyful things to me, and I, you know, and I don't, I stopped denying myself the idea of it because I'm supposed to be grownups. You know? Like that's, that's a small way I do it.
The things that made me happy as a child, I indulge myself. Like, it's like healing my little, my inner [00:48:30] still. It's also like just patting her in the head. Laying and, yeah. You good? You still there? I know you good. Oh,
we all need that. We all need that. We do. I agree. Listen, I'm aware that we've been talking for ages.
This has been such a cool conversation. So something that I ask everybody on this podcast, which is and actually you've sort of already answered this in so many different ways, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.
Okay. People listen to this podcast. I know, because they, they write into me, they send me messages and they, and you know, when I talk to people out and about who've [00:49:00] listened to it, they say this to me that, you know, there are people listening to this who are still in that place of pain or challenge or trauma or whatever.
Mm-hmm. And, you know, there's nothing, there's no right or wrong to that. You know, sometimes that's where we are, isn't it? Or it's people who've been through something and want to do something with that energy or that experience. What do you say to people who have their own [00:49:30] lemons, whatever they are, what do you say to them about lemonade, about.
Turning those negatives into something positive,
It's okay to sit with it and it's okay that you're going through it. One thing that I gave myself uh, one thing that I would say to myself going through it was, it's just today. It's just today. It'd be something else Tomorrow. Be something different tomorrow and it'll be good tomorrow.
It's just today, it's just now it's just this hour. I would literally just tell myself like, chill out girl. Good. [00:50:00] Like, it's just now. And I will go take a nap. That's another thing I would do. Like if you are able, when I tell you, if you are able, if you're going through something emotionally, mentally, it just feels like it's, you can't shake it or whatever.
Take a nap. I'm a big
napper. I'm a big nap. 20 minutes is all I need.
That's it. Tell the people I will take a nap. I will tell myself it's just now, and I will go and take a 20 minute nap and after that 20 minute. [00:50:30] It's like, you know what? It wasn't what it was. It just was, it's, it feels a little bit lighter.
Okay. Yeah. And then, you know, if you can't get to a therapist or somebody else to be a sounding board that has an impartial point of view, not your best friend. 'cause your best friend is probably dealing with what you're dealing with. 'cause energy attracts Right. Your in the same energy field. Don't do that.
Go to a therapist or somebody who has a, an impartial version of events. And, and sometimes I say, don't even go to your pastor, don't go to your preacher. Go to somebody who is an actual, [00:51:00] who can give you different language, who's gonna give you information that isn't tied to a religion, that isn't tied to a version of events that is supposed to be governing your life.
Because oftentimes it's what's outside of your life that's trying to come in that's causing the issue with you. And it's that thing, that information that we don't have or that language that we don't have that can help translate it. That makes all the difference. Yeah. So I say. Go find or Oxford to whoever you [00:51:30] believe in to send you something or somebody that can help you get out of this ru, and, and take a nap.
And remember that. It's just today. It's just today. It is just today. And at the end of the day in 1159. 59 the day Go end. Okay. And move along.
And something else will be along tomorrow. So true. Yeah.
You'll be all right. You'll be okay. Eselle.
I'm, yeah. I'm so grateful to you for this conversation. I've loved it.
Thank
you. Thank you. This has been [00:52:00] fun. . That was Estelle. That was actual, Estelle. Still can't believe we had that conversation. I still can't believe how brilliant it was, how lovely she was, how easy to talk to, and, and just how much wisdom she had to share as well. I mean, I've been listening to that recording over and over since making it and, ugh.
There's [00:52:30] so much great stuff in there.
Estelle, thank you so much again for taking the time to chat to me. And if you haven't already, go and have a Listen to Estelle's latest album. Stay outer. It's, it's so full of energy, it's so full of optimism. It's just the joy. And Estelle also mentioned the book that she's working on at the moment.
I didn't manage to get the name of that. Maybe it hasn't got a title yet, but I'll share it when I know more about it. [00:53:00] As ever, thank you for being here. Thanks for being part of the conversation. I hope you've got as much out of this episode as I have, I will see you next time on Making Lemonade.
Making Lemonade is produced and presented by me, Mark O’Sullivan. Our theme music is by Dan Breeze, and there's additional help from Ian [00:53:30] Cullen.