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Daisy’s Links:
https://www.nowvisible.org.uk/
The Second Victim: Daisy's Story
By Daisy, Emma Barnaby
Narrated by Daisy
Listen on Audible:
https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/B0CN9P9DM6?source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=pdp
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/judge-praises-daughters-pursuit-justice-21213296
If you've been affected by anything you've heard in this episode, please take care of yourselves, and consider visiting (or contacting) any of these organisations:
www.mind.org.uk
https://www.samaritans.org
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Hi everyone. Before we jump in a note on our content this episode contains themes and discussion that might be upsetting or triggering for some listeners. Please check the show notes for more detailed descriptions And look after yourself.
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Making Lemonade. This episode is part two of [00:00:30] Daisy's story,and if you haven't listened to the first part, I really recommend you go and do that first.
and as with that episode, it contains some themes that are difficult, traumatic, and distressing. And now let's get straight back to Daisy.
Anyway, we're sitting in the car for about 15, 20 minutes and we see this figure slightly towards us. [00:01:00] And as he gets closer, I can see he's an older black man now in his maybe seventies, early seventies. And I said, that's him, that, that's him. Gets off his bike, kind of cocks us and then goes down right in front of the car, gets off his bike, right outside his house, takes his bike down the driveway. And obviously cameras on camera on parts pounding.
And then we just go and knock on the door. So he's just like, Mr. Bennett, hello, would you come to your front [00:01:30] door? Because he's still obviously pet his bike down the side. At this time the next door neighbors are bringing stuff in and out from their test for the shop or whatever supermarket it was.
And so very aware that, gonna have to be quite subtle. See the cameras on and he eventually opens the door and I was like, oh, Mr. Bennett. He's like, yes. And it's actually in hindsight when I watch this clip, because it's all sound apart from this clip that catches his face [00:02:00] when he opens the door.
I do want to be thinks we are police officers, quite sloppy ones, but I wonder if he does think we're police officer that's sort of step in towards him on front step and said your Carl Bennett. Yes. Your wife's name. Is this your children's name? Is this adult children? Yes. And I just said, oh, I believe I'm your daughter.
And he goes, oh. And on the camera you can see a slight smile actually, and he just says, oh. Come in.
[00:02:30] Come in. Okay. Come in. And then probably still the most bizarre 40 minutes of my life. Four zero. Yeah. Did you have a cup of tea?
Do you know what? Rude. He didn't offer us a drink, I don't think. Tony give us a drink, but went and sat down.
Come in.
Oh yeah. Take my shoes off. Thank you. Oh, so sorry about this. I just played it.
It's a bit of a sloppy adoption reunion. Hello? [00:03:00] Yeah, we were just in, we were just in Birmingham. Alright. Um, as you are, and you know, I've been looking at, you know, I'm adopted and your name came up in my files, so actually his name isn't a different name. And yeah. So I just wanted to meet you, so this must be a surprise.
And he's all like, Uhhuh Uhhuh. Talked about, um, I think you knew my grandmother. Do you remember my mother? This is her name. Do you remember this? Do you remember that? Okay. I said, yeah, [00:03:30] because from my father, it seems like you are probably my birth father. And it got to a stage right when I actually said to him, so if you did have sex with her, then the files are probably right.
If you didn't, then we don't need to continue having this conversation. And to that, he just sort of said, well, just 'cause you have sex with somebody doesn't mean you make a baby. He then also said, oh, actually, I remember [00:04:00] social services asked me to go in for a blood test, but then I didn't hear anything back that would've been a DNA test back in the seventies.
He said to me that I looked like his daughter and said, well, if you believe I'm your. Then I'm your dad.
He also, I also noticed there was a picture of a girl school in a school unit for her school photo who's about 12, and I just remember going, oh my God, who is this child? Is she [00:04:30] visiting? Oh, who's that? Oh, that's my granddaughter. She visits every second Wednesday. I remember thinking, oh my God. Oh God. The lurch in your stomach and your heart.
Yeah. Yeah. He said he didn't go out much, but he went to, he said something about when he did go out, he used to go to, um, some sort of fitness class that was really majority of women. Again, I'm just like, oh my God. Yeah, just bizarre. You know what, I didn't say my [00:05:00] name throughout that, and he didn't ask it, and he only at the end of it asked my boyfriend's name.
Which I said, oh, this is Alex. And actually, I don't believe you've asked my name. I'm Daisy. Alright. And I just thought, you know, because I've been in touch with the, my grandmother who knew I, who was aware I was snooping around. I think she probably told him. So yeah, hadn't asked my name at all. So [00:05:30] again, didn't outrightly accuse him?
He didn't outrightly admit anything that was kind of police worthy, investigation worthy, but he didn't refute it. I think his issue seemed to be the timing. I think that's what he had said. Um, I didn't think it was me because of the timing, not because she was a 13, 14-year-old family friend.
So following the meeting with my birth father in Birmingham I think probably a few weeks later, because I've been in touch with Birmingham [00:06:00] Social Care as well. I met with a, he was called the director, uh, it somebody term safeguarding director of safeguarding.
And, and that wasn't in relation to that meeting. It just happened. It coincided. And met with him. He basically had said, yes, I, we a contact from you. I've been kind. Asked to meet with you. And so I just explained to him the situation, [00:06:30] um, what I've been trying to do, the risks about my birth father that was concerned about, but actually have they not got a responsibility to act now, even though this was a historic case, where's your responsibility to act now?
You have all this evidence in my files that I've seen. Obviously I get redacted files. So for me it's like you probably got even more information. So I was like, I've got evidence from the files. This was child sexual [00:07:00] abuse, this, you know, where's your responsibility through back then. But also currently in terms of safeguarding, protecting other children where there's a, an alleged perpetrator who's already done, I suspect this one thing.
I did feel like he was sent down to kind of, to cape me. But actually I felt the meeting in the end was positive. He told me he'd go back, have a discussion with legal, they'll review my case files. He'd say, you know, we've not had [00:07:30] any situation like this, so there isn't any kind of protocol. But I will ask that you are kept informed and these files are reviewed.
Great. Probably three weeks later I hear that he's leaving the council. And I follow up with legal and he said, you know, I've asked people to keep you informed. I then get a follow up from the legal team saying that, and also I've sent him the recording of the meeting with the birth father. I get a follow up from [00:08:00] legal saying that there isn't anything that they could do and directed me back to the police.
Now, I thought this time the police had already deemed me vexatious for complaining and asking them to, um, investigate because I kept pressing them.
So when you, how did you know that they'd labeled you as Vexatious?
I'd written, I was getting nowhere with the Public Protection Unit, and I was told, [00:08:30] well, if you wanna put a complaint in, go ahead and do that.
I hoped it wouldn't get to that point, but I thought, okay, I'll put a complaint in, put the complaint in to the police, and it was deemed a vexatious. Um, complaint because they said, you know, it was basically you've been told we can't do anything, but you kept continuing to contact us. Yet you are a flex complainant and
that's the official word that they use.
Yes. Yeah.
Wow. [00:09:00]
Which was shocking, I've been told since. Oh yeah, that's, that's, it wasn't personal to you. That's just how we deal with those complaints. I just thought to use word vexatious, you know, to cause annoyance and irritation. I, I mean, it was mind blowing really. Absolutely. I was gutted.
I thought, what I'm trying to do, it's not just, you know, I'm not trying to cause annoyance. I'm trying to do something where there's been a huge injustice, lack of [00:09:30] accountability by police, other professionals, and ultimately there's a man who's. To child and other children have been at risk for decades.
There's
an ongoing danger.
Yeah. And I, I appealed that to the, it was called then the IPCC police Complaints Commission. They upheld it. But that didn't stop me. So yeah, the council just referred me back. [00:10:00] To the police. The police boss that had deemed me Vexatious said that the recording wasn't evidence.
I knew that, but there wasn't any, any confirmation that they'd gone through the files. And it's like, again, yes, it's a criminal complaint, but this is also to do with social care. And so had got nowhere with that. Ultimately, I just thought I'm, I'm just not gonna get any, I'm not getting anywhere here. I think in the [00:10:30] November of 2015, I ended up writing a long email.
I sent an email, long email to both police and social care directors with six points about why I felt they were failing, what I felt the risks were, what I had done. And I got zero responses. It wasn't even acknowledged. Not even acknowledged. So ultimately I didn't wanna give up that it was. A year or so later that I thought, I'm [00:11:00] gonna have to go to the media because I can't let this rest here.
Mm-hmm. Um, I connected with a journalist in Birmingham who I had seen, had written stories in the Birmingham Mail flagging issues around social care failings. Also, west Midlands Police were had been criticized, I think in a, in a, um, investment. Sort of an inspection report about failings as well, particularly around sexual violence.
And so I worked with a journalist to publish a story about [00:11:30] what I'd been trying to do that was released in kind of April, May, 2017. Really great journalist, Jeanette Oldham, who was really supported. Again, that didn't elicit any response. No response from the police, no response from social care, no response from, I was hoping they'd be local mps there.
And so that felt like a dance squid. I thought that would feel kind of cathartic and obviously I had to [00:12:00] remain anonymous and of course, kept. My birth mother anonymous. But it didn't feel cathartic at all. Kept looking at different ways to try and get a response. I think in that time, west Midlands Police had a historic sexual offenses team, but then opened 'cause all the prevalence of cases, contacted them.
Hi. I've been in touch previously with the Public Protection Unit. Um. This is free summary of my [00:12:30] case and sort of flagged up, I don't know if you are gonna act differently to the public protection Unit, but I wanted to flag up this man's name and address in case you get any further reports.
Basically they said, yeah, we are very aware of you and yeah, you've been told that nothing could be progressed in this case and you are not the victim.
And throughout all this time, contacting various people connected to child sexual violence, solicitors, child [00:13:00] abuse lawyers, anybody connected with how I thought the case could be progressed was, you are not, the victim can't do anything.
And I just felt that it's incredible because I can show, I feel like I can demonstrate.
In terms of a definition of victim, why that should fit in legally to elicit some sort of action. Yeah. And the fact that I had so much evidence, irrefutable evidence being my DNA and also just their ages on birth certificates, [00:13:30] that could have been enough to have somebody go, do you know what we need to try and do something differently.
Yeah. And I felt it just needed to get to the right person, but maybe they would do that. So let's fast forward 2019. Sorry, late 2018 Victoria Darbyshire show that, um, had a story about a woman Sammy Wood's house, who was a victim, survivor of grooming gangs, had a child as a result of the sexual [00:14:00] exploitation, and there was a piece about the perpetrator and social care supportive and kind of contact with this child.
So I thought, okay, I'm gonna write to Victoria Dark Chair, who should feature my story? So in early 2019, I had a response from the show, one of the journalists of the show saying, we are really interested in your story. Let's meet. So we did meet. I mean, they were saying, we are not sure what piece we could do.
We are really [00:14:30] interested. It might be a really short piece because you have to remain anonymous. That's really difficult. And it's not so interesting for people. In a way, I think she should put it more sensitively than that when they can't see the face of the person. Yeah, yeah. And I know you're restricted.
But that went ahead actually. And it was in August, 2019 that they featured my story. They actually did kind of a reenactment reconstruction piece with actors about my story, [00:15:00] which was really well done. There was a discussion which featured MP Jess Phillips and a solicitor from the Center of Women's Justice, which has been amazing as a result of being contacted about my story.
They actually then wanted to support me. Um, they understood what I wanted to do in trying to change the law. On top of. Trying to get my birth father convicted. I've explained to them just the [00:15:30]fight to get recognized and understood had made me really realize how the law needed to be changed. Yeah, the first step was obviously trying to get him convicted.
As a result of that piece, west Midlands police then decided to visit my birth mother, and long story short, that then was. The Victoria ship piece was absolutely a catalyst for them to then investigate. [00:16:00] So my birth mother was visited by the police. She obviously had a real think about, and also, can I just say she did give consent for the Victoria Dar share show?
She absolutely did understand what I was trying to do. Yeah, I think understandably, very mixed emotions about it. But she ultimately did decide very bravely to make a statement. I was then visited by the police and asked to do a witness statement and to give DNA, [00:16:30] I mean, I did give those officers a hard time to be honest, but.
I've been asking to even meet with them. Let me meet with you, show you what I've got. Please at least have a meeting. Nothing. Yeah. So I did say, isn't it ironic? I've been told I'm not a victim. The way I've been treated by your police force has been really disrespectful and dismissive. And now here you are wanting my DNA, and basically I've done the investigation, but here you go.
And so over the next few months, their investigation ensued. What I will [00:17:00] say, I had to fight to be updated.
Mm-hmm.
Um, when I was asking for updates, really dismissive, very patronizing, very condescending. I. Real kind of lack of respect.
Was it that, was it that same kind of, you are not the victim here.
You are not the victim. Okay. Yeah. Alright lady. It's kind of like, alright, we'll c we'll come to you. Yeah. We'll keep you updated when we can. I mean, I wasn't informed when my birth father was initially arrested. I heard [00:17:30] that through a journal through the journalist from Victoria. Glad show right. I had to be, I had to constantly be in touch and I mean, we did have a meeting with them in the January.
Talking to them about the attitude has been really quite disgraceful and the complete lack of sensitivity towards me as well. DNA test came back later on in sort of early in January in 2020. It was [00:18:00]confirmed, of course, that the DNA was a match, and obviously there's the criminal aspect of that, that yes, it's him.
But also for me, that was huge in terms of yes, this is confirmed as your birth father. Yeah. So it really twofold. Even though you knew, knew it
and even though you, you know, it was it was a foregone conclusion. Yeah. To have it confirmed like that must have been enormous.
[00:18:30] Yeah. It was a vindication, but it was also.
The real corroboration. This is him. This is absolutely who you identified despite all the barriers, despite not even being given this man's name. And it's the confirmation that your birth father is a child rapist. And again, yeah, just mind blobbing really in many ways later on. That year they [00:19:00] confirmed that my birth father was charged.
He absolutely was saying, uh, no, no comment in police interviews. Apparently when he was in court, it was, he pled not guilty, and part of me Mark thought, okay, he's in his seventies. There's so much evidence. Is he just gonna be like, you know what, it's caught up with me. Yeah. I'm gonna plead guilty.
'cause also that minimizes the sentence. I didn't think he'd do it out of being a good person. [00:19:30] I just thought, would it not make sense for you to just admit it?
Yeah.
And, but no, he pled not guilty, which I was stunned by. And he was released on bail and so out on bail for nine months. Before the trial and that was just staggering to me.
There's DNA corroboration and you are letting this man be out on bail for nine months. And it was around obviously COVID, so part of me was worried is he going [00:20:00] to die before we even get to trial? He had all the court delays as well. So it was just really anxiety inducing, of
course.
Um. Impact of COVID and delays.
Is he gonna die of COVID? Am I gonna be around? But also just really aware about how immensely, horrifying traumatic it was must be for my birth mother anticipating this trial as well. And you know, I [00:20:30] think we talked about guilt, my guilt in relation to her and what's happened to her. And I absolutely.
Knew I did the right thing, I was pursuing the right thing, but a guilt about, I feel kind of responsible for triggering all of this criminal investigation trial. But just thinking how trauma traumatizing it must be for her.
Hugely. Yeah.
We weren't really in [00:21:00] contact then, and I was just very aware.
I didn't want any accusation of we are trying to, you know, because doing anything to impact negatively on the trial. But obviously we weren't in a relationship particularly then. And then the trial date came up at the end of June.
First person. So I was with a friend and Kate Ellis, my solicitor from said to Women's Justice. We go up to Birmingham. And I walk into the court, which is quite quiet 'cause of COVID [00:21:30] and the first person I lay eyes on is my birth father, which kind was just, I knew he would be there, of course. But obviously, you know yourself.
Been to court just in that atmosphere, what we were there for, that, this is the second time I've met him. The first time, you know, it was a turn up on your doorstep and I know I felt I had the right person, but now I knew it was him and here we are for his trial as a child, right? This. [00:22:00] Initially, I just thought my friends had said to me, do you wanna sit away from him?
And I actually thought, no, I want to sit here. I want to keep my eyes on him.
Yeah.
Um, and then my, my birth mother arrived and it was then I was thinking, I'm like many adoptees. I've had the opportunity to meet both of my birth parents and like many adoptees, I have the opportunity to be in the same room as my birth parents.
This [00:22:30] is like a really twisted kind of adopt reunion show in that it was happening at the backdrop of the rape trial and I had no relationship with either of these people. We are all related through sexual violence. Um, and just, it was just immense, really immense when we were all led into the courtroom.
This was just bizarre. No one said to my birth father indicated, go and [00:23:00] sit in the dock. So he was just kind of standing next to me actually as I was seated, and he remained standing. So I said to my friend, move over to allow him to sit down. So for a f for a few seconds, he was sitting down next to me.
It's like, where, what? What is going on? I could have lunged for him. I could have just even been in his presence. I kind of felt a bit like pity for him that it looked a bit kind of embarrassing. Yeah. That he was [00:23:30] left just sort of floating there. Just incredible really. You've got police officers there.
Yeah. And why are they not making sure? I was okay, but that hadn't happened. Um, anyway, so we have the trial. I. Horrific sexual violence disclosures from people over the years. But to say the second date of trial when I am watching my birth mother's interview, [00:24:00] hearing her hearing her on the stand, she was incredibly brave, incredibly poised just.
Just horrific. Nobody really wants to know how they're conceived, even if it's a funny story. Yes. Between your parents. No one wants to hear that at all to let alone hear for the first time the details of your conception when it's rape. Just really harrowing and harrowing again to, but that is the, that the arena that I'm hearing it [00:24:30] in, that people are hearing that strangers are hearing that.
At the same time as I'm hearing that, hearing verbatim what my birth mother went through, the lack of care, which I knew, but hearing about the lack of care from others, um, when he was on the stand, the lack of remorse, the lack of accountability, the lack of guilt. I mean, I felt like a bit of a prop in the courtroom.
You know, if you kind [00:25:00] of, da your daughter Daisy. You know, at one point I'm gonna say this, you know, there was a question about whether he ejaculated and he sort of didn't really answer. I'm sitting there going, of course you did. I'm sitting here. I'm sitting here. I just, just the most bizarre, surreal, horrendous.
Experience around, I can see, see
in your, I can see in your face as you're describing [00:25:30] this, just how sort of almost ludicrous.
Yeah.
Some of it must have seemed.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it was a three day trial, so that was the Thursday, Friday and then the Monday you know what, I was able to join online.
I just thought, I think I'd wanna do that because just being in that arena was just so hard. [00:26:00] Um, and obviously he was gonna, he was gonna be centers. I thought, I feel okay about not being in the courtroom if I can watch it.
Mm-hmm.
And so I did decide to watch it online and. Dragged people in and out.
And I think I took a phone call from a friend 'cause it got to lunchtime because I was thinking, okay, the jury gonna come back. Why is it taking so long? Surely it's gonna be kind of an instant. 'cause you know, it's been two days of clear evidence. Although [00:26:30] made more stab the victim, blaming for their father and kind of the defense.
Solicitor, really? Mm-hmm. And there's the morning dragged on us thinking, oh God, this is, I was feeling confident that you just never know, do you? No.
No.
And what we know about rape, the lack of rape prosecutions successful. And I think I took a call from a friend, I was like, I'm getting nervous now.
I'm starting to get really nervous now. Why is it taking so long? Yeah. I think I was on a call and then I got a call [00:27:00] from my, I think it was from journalist Diane Taylor, who I'd been in touch with about, from the, and she was gonna do a piece for the Guardian who I'd been in touch with about the story and that I wanted to campaign.
So she came to follow the trial and she was actually in the courtroom that day. And um, remember she called me and my solicitor called me. I think my solicitor had said, did you just see that? And I was like, no. I was just on the phone. She's like, guilty. He was found guilty. The jury actually, it took them two hours, two and a half [00:27:30] hours.
Mm-hmm
For a guilty verdict. And
utter relief. I don't know if there was a natural kind of feeling of celebration 'cause who's won in this? That should have happened 46 years ago. What I've had to go through in terms of my experience with trying to get the conviction, what my birth mother has had to go through her lifetime and now had this daughter almost kind of [00:28:00] pull her hand in many ways.
I mean, she absolutely made the choice to come forward to do the statement. Yeah. But. I'm very aware of her sense of kind of a lack of control and feeling it was her story. That's what's been expressed to me, and I get that, that to me it's our story and it's absolutely my story as well. In many respects, it's two people with connected through this act.
Um, this man, it's taken all this time and he [00:28:30] is lived his life and so. Relief. That's not celebration. Not celebration.
I completely understand that. Like you say, there are no winners are there?
No.
It's something that absolutely should not have happened.
Yeah.
But it did happen.
Totally.
Yeah.
Yeah. [00:29:00]
Hey everyone.
Just before we get back to the episode, I wonder if I could ask you a favor.
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and so obviously I'm thinking, oh the sentencing will be a while away. It's normally not immediately. And I think it was Diane said, oh yes, so they're going to um, a sentencing tomorrow. [00:30:30] I was like, what?
Wow.
Yeah, they're sentencing tomorrow. I was like, oh, shit. I wasn't expecting that. Okay, well I need to come down tomorrow then.
Um, I'd, I'd written a victim statement in late 2020 'cause they were collating all the information, all the evidence they had. And I'd said, I want to be able to do a victim statement again. Oh, that's unprecedented. 'cause you're not a victim. We've not had this case before, but write one. So [00:31:00] I wrote once, so I know that I'd been submitted, but during the trial I sort of said to the prosecutor who, 'cause I was kind of irrelevant in this trial, to be honest.
Yeah. Birth mother's a victim, witness birth father. I'm kind of in legal terms, an aggravating factor 'cause you get a higher sentence if there's a pregnancy. But I've said to the prosecutor, have you been told I want to do a victim's statement? Oh, no one hasn't been. Thank you. I said, could you speak?
He said, the judge will make, can make that [00:31:30] decision. I said, well, could you speak to the judge? Because I have written one. The police have it. Could you see if he'll allow that to happen? No. And so the judge did allow that to happen. He absolutely gave permission to me to do that. Um, and so, yeah, went back down to Birmingham.
One of my friends was with me. He was there from the first day of trial. I felt the judge was brilliant actually in his summing up, he was very clear about the victim blaming that had taken place, how ludicrous my birth father was in [00:32:00] terms of his reasoning. Yeah. He obviously he had the victim statement from my birth mother, which the prosecutor read out.
I read out my victim statement, which I'd be told the police had, and then the police the next day I said, we don't have a copy. So that was again, ludicrous. People didn't have a copy that was told to. So then I had to, one of the court ushers like to be given their laptop, scroll through the, you know, but I was able to stand there, look at him and [00:32:30] give my victim statement, which was not only to him, but to everybody that had failed me and my birth mother. Really? Yeah. About what the impact was. And what I will say is that I was extremely appreciative that the judge. Had also was the first person to recognize that yes, you are a victim too in this summing up and really did give me praise.
He goes like, you know, you've pursued this despite [00:33:00] all the barriers, really commend your dog determination against all the closed doors. Um, and I'd encourage other people to do the same. And it was again, first time somebody in the criminal justice system had said You were right to do this. Yeah. And I see, I see you.
So that was really powerful. I knew doing this would mean that I was probably for fitting any chance of a relationship between myself and my birth mother. [00:33:30] What I will say on that is that it has, and I don't wanna go into details of it. Sure. But I can only say I have the utmost respect for her and I just, it for me, it speaks to the impact of so many levels of trauma.
Yeah.
And the reverberations of that. Um, and. I can very much understand why. She would also have very mixed emotions about me [00:34:00] as her child, as her baby, how I came about and all sorts of different things. But yeah, so after the trial it was right. The next thing now is to change the law because I did not want anybody in my position to have to go through what I did in terms of trying to get a conviction.
Even if they didn't want the conviction, there's nowhere that offers support for people born, conceived from rape. There's no [00:34:30] validation, there's no confirmation. We even exist when you go onto kind of organizations. Yeah. Um, and that needed to change. So it's then when Center of Women's Justice and myself, the um.
Launched the Crowd Justice campaign for Daisy's Law, for them to support me with that. And that's what it was to help increase convictions, help increase support awareness for organizations the victims'. Bill was going to be going through. I. And even though I've spoken to two [00:35:00] victims commissioners since 2013 who were not interested at all I was determined that the law needed to change.
We submitted for the victim's bill in and. For Daisy's law and in 2023, January, 2023, um, we had confirmation that that legislation was gonna be put forward in the victims and prisoners bill. And very proud to say that this year when the victims and prisoners bill went through [00:35:30] children born as a result of criminal conduct are now deemed victims 'cause of my campaigning, which yeah.
Just immense. Just immense. I
can see, again, I can see in your face and, you know, I feel like I need to describe it for listeners. The sense of com Absolutely. Completely justified pride in, in what you've done, in what you've achieved. In the lemonade that you've made. Yeah. Out [00:36:00] of those lemons, that's.
Absolutely incredible what you've done, but it hasn't stopped there, has it?
No, it's not stopped there. So I had actually been, you know, I wanted to have my first thought with all this. I'm gonna make a documentary while I ended up making a documentary podcast. Called the second victim on Audible. So it's this eight part podcast about my life and about [00:36:30] the what I've done in terms of the prosecution and it's about adoption, rape, identity loss.
I think there's elements that will resonate with lots of people. Yeah. Around loss identity. Experience relationships with parents. You don't have to be an adopted black woman born from rape for you to, I hope for something to resonate
with you.
Um, and that, that [00:37:00] was huge. That was absolutely huge. What I will say, it was life changing.
Um. Not to give any spoilers out, but it cemented my identity in such a powerful way. I was able to have my genealogy done and just one of the things I would say about finding out my genealogy and being out in Jamaica was that my genealogy, they got it back to sort of [00:37:30] 1740s.
Oh, wow.
And it's just like my God.
And I was able to stand on a bridge where I knew my ancestors absolutely had walked. And that first kind of tangible connection to my black Caribbean Jamaican identity was really cemented. And the, and of course there's. Links to I'm descended from slave owning colonizers, enslaved people, [00:38:00]Indian indentured workers.
And there's this connection for all of us through these generations. Yeah. That there's a theme of violence, there's a theme of having to survive, there's a theme of injustice. Mm-hmm. And it kind of, sort of made sense. I am who I am. In a way. So yeah, that was extraordinarily powerful, the whole journey of doing a podcast.
Really powerful. Also quite [00:38:30] re-traumatizing. Really took a while afterwards. Really proud of it, but it took a long time afterwards to kind of recover from that. But I did give it my all, it's very personal. I did read, I did the worst thing he was told not to do. Read a couple of the comments.
She should
never have done that.
No, it's such slippery. Oh my God. It's a slippery slope. That one. Yeah, and it's kind of like, this is very selfish. Where's your empathy? And it's like, it's my story. Why am I being called selfish for telling my story and like a lack of empathy for my [00:39:00] birth mother and felt really? So we read those initially.
They're quite, it's such upsetting, but I will absolutely stand by being able to tell my story and hoping it does resonate with other people. Um, and it increases understanding. And no, it doesn't stop there. 'cause I have now just recently launched with two amazing co-founders, George Perry and Louise Barry now visible.
So this is an organization [00:39:30] that we are wanting to end the silence around. People born from rape, we are wanting to impact. Support organizations about interventions and support for people, children born from rape, mothers, adoptive parents, anybody connected. We want to influence the justice system.
Obviously now the victim's, bill Daisy's law is the legislation has come through. How is this now going to impact in terms of [00:40:00] supporting people like me through the justice system, mothers, through the justice system, the cliche, a complete insensitivity with a case like mine where there is this complexity, where there is this mother and child, the sensitivity that is needed for both those parties with these investigations.
So it's kind of, yeah, we, and we want to start with research. We want Peter from road to kind of co-collaborate with us about what we need, what's gonna be [00:40:30] helpful. But I think at least also it validation for people. I did actually speak to a friend a couple of weeks ago. She's got an 80-year-old mother and she was talking to her mother and showed her mother the website.
For the first time she's heard from her mother. Her mother said, that's me. I was born from rape. I'm a rape baby at eight, two years old. She said, I would probably not have heard that from her if I hadn't that day. Shown her this website. I. [00:41:00] Gosh, and the impact that that's had on my friend about that makes sense about her relationship with her mother.
That makes sense about my experience in many ways with her parenting. I understand her better now, and someone at 18 to finally get some validation that. This impacts other people. And you've got a right to feel your feelings about how you came into this world, um, and to make sense and how it's impacting you.
Make
sense? And to make sense of [00:41:30] your own life and your own existence and
Yeah. Yeah. Who
you are, where you're from.
Absolutely. So yeah, so we've just started that. So it's all the initial stages. There's a survey for people born from rape. We want to, so many things, we want people to contribute to longer research.
You know what I always think, mark, I guess this is the lemonade, isn't it? That has to be out of some, a situation so horrific and tragic with so [00:42:00] many. Losers, so many people impacted. I sort of think that one act of rape in the seventies, the reverberations of that. Yeah. It's not just my birth mother, it's not just me, his children, my birth mothers, other children.
My foster care is my adoptive parents, my siblings, um. It's so wide ranging that one act, the lives that has absolutely [00:42:30] changed impacted negatively that this is definitely the lemons that, that's the good that's been done. That's the good that's been gone out of it. Yeah. And,
and that's something good can come out of something so awful.
Yeah. Yeah.
How. How does it feel to have done that? I mean, you've done it in multiple ways. How does it feel to have taken something so devastating and traumatic [00:43:00] and made something good out of it? You know, when you hear like an 80-year-old say, oh, I can now say this. How, how does that feel for you?
That is so powerful every time.
I mean, I think there was a point over the years when I just thought, I'm not, is it just me? Am I making a big thing of this? Because you don't hear anyone talk about it, even though I knew I wouldn't. You start going maybe I'm making a big thing of [00:43:30] it. Every time I hear somebody confirm that it happened to them.
Somebody says, oh God, I've worked because I know a lot of social workers. Oh my God, I'm just thinking about a family I worked with 30 years ago that has happened. I get it when it's somebody's own experience. It's so validating and it is so powerful. And it may be, like I said, it may be people don't wanna go ahead and want justice.
There's so much power in [00:44:00] somebody bearing witness. Yeah. Just hearing you. So even if you don't even necessarily want advice or other support, but it's so powerful. It, yeah, it really is. It really is amazing. It's just incredible. And it feels unreal. You know, there's all these achievements. It doesn't feel like me in a way.
There's a kind of, a bit of a dissociation
really.
And occasionally it'll hit me about, oh my God, you did that. And [00:44:30] I hope it does demonstrate to people whatever the circumstances that there is, you can regain power, you can regain control in whatever way that is for you. I had the odds absolutely stacked against me on so many levels.
But I hope it does demonstrate to people that, you know. There is a power that you hold.
That's such a powerful thing. You've just said it, it does give you [00:45:00] power. It does give you control by taking it and owning it and saying, yes, these are my lemons, whatever they are. Mm-hmm. I, I possess them than saying it out loud, saying it to someone. Yeah. Just saying it to yourself Sometimes I think there, there are lots of instances where we can't even say to ourselves what has happened to us because of what that means and because of how, how we fear we will feel if we admit these [00:45:30]things to ourself.
I'm really interested as well in that and perhaps it's true for me as well, and I don't think I've ever quite thought about it in this way, but in how. Part of your lemonade has also been in getting justice for what happened to you and your birth, uh, mother. Yeah. Which I, as you've been talking about your case, I thought, oh yeah, I kind of, maybe that's what I was doing there as well, you know, maybe that [00:46:00] was some kind of lemonade in its own right, wasn't it?
Because. Because in, in both our cases, hopefully, I know they're very different in lots of ways, but hopefully we meant that other people weren't harmed. We were part of the re we, we helped to keep some other people safe.
Yeah. Yeah.
And that's amazing lemonade, isn't it?
Yes, it is. No one else has come forward in terms of my birth father.[00:46:30]
I don't believe that no one else was harmed by him. And there's part of me thinking if there, if he did, I hope that they can see there is, there has been some justice. Yeah, there finally. But I also think justice for me has not just been about the conviction. It's been kind of a personal justice Yeah.
For me has been in. Particularly during the podcast in like finding my identity, [00:47:00] it's all been wrapped into one. I've had to fight to know my identity, sitting in court and hearing horrific stuff, but actually going, I now know, I know now. Some of that, a lot of that is around justice as well. About, yeah.
I know I now I know. And justice for me has also been about, I know my identity fully. One of the things I do want to say as well is, you know, I refer to [00:47:30] Carldale Bennett as my birth father, and I've had people sort of go, oh, why'd you say father? He's not your father. And I've heard people in the same position as me.
They might say, sperm donor, the rapist. Just not even utter his name, the perpetrator. And I get that. Absolutely. Get that. For me, I refer to him as birth father, and it's because for me, it's a very kind of black and white thing. He was responsible for my birth. Yeah. And the same way that I [00:48:00] say birth mother, I don't refer to as mom because she wasn't given that opportunity.
Um, and I think when, as an adoptee it's that kind of defining for other people as well. I use her name when I talk about her to people, but I refer to her as birth mother. 'cause I think it's very stark there for people that, neither of which have been able to do either because of those circumstances.
And I'm, and so that's why I use the term birth father. I fortunately had a dad, my adoptive dad, who [00:48:30] was amazing and. Thank fuck. 'cause what a compensation. Because the alternative, you know, as I had a bad relationship with my adoptive father and then also my birth father is this perpetrator. I think that would've given me a very skewed view of men and fathers.
Yeah. But I was very fortunate to have a really positive father figure in my life. Yeah. Yeah.
I. I've been trying to word this in my [00:49:00] head and I hope what I'm about to say makes sense, and I'm slightly nervous about saying it, but I'm going to say it and you can tell me. So I'm, you can tell me how you feel.
I, I know from everything that you've told me here, your. Your existence, the way you came around was difficult and upsetting and traumatic for so many people in so many ways, for decades and [00:49:30]decades and decades. But I'm so glad and grateful that you exist and that you are this incredible person doing this amazing work and helping other people.
In your or similar situations. Is that all right to say?
Oh, yeah, definitely. You've got me all teary. You've got me all teary. Thank you, mark. Thank you. And yeah, I appreciate you saying that. No, that means a lot. [00:50:00] It really does.
Yeah, you're amazing. Thank you.
I, you know, despite, this might sound a bit weird, I can't remember if you said it in the first part, but I, I'll say it again.
I feel really fortunate that I know I've got my purpose in life.
Yeah.
You know, that I can, there's something I can. In control of that. I'm passionate about that helps other people. I feel really fortunate that I get to do what I do with now [00:50:30] visible. I'm really excited about that and, yeah.
That's the amazing lemonade to have. It
is,
yeah. That's the greatest achievement for me. Yeah.
But I know there's something that you did want to share with us.
Yes. Um, obviously had the opportunity to read my victim statement in court and I feel like it would be helpful to share it on here. Definitely. Um, because I think it helps people [00:51:00] understand in a nutshell the impact the impact of being born from rape has, and not just me, other people. Yeah. So thank you for allowing me to share it.
Carl, be Bennett. You have caused total carnage. Your act of violence decimated any potential relationship between my birth mother and I because you chose to rape a child. You made the choice to rape a child, the daughter of your friend, or [00:51:30] to betrayal of trust. You were never held to account by those who were supposed to protect my birth mother and other children.
No one sought justice for the harm you caused. You have evaded justice for 45 years. You've got to have a family life. You've had the opportunity to get married, have children, live with those children and watch them grow up because you chose to rape. A child only had seven days in hospital with my birth mother.[00:52:00]
I read, my grandmother visited and thought I looked like you. Imagine how that felt for my birth mother at 14 years old, to look down at her baby and see the features of her rapist. I can't imagine what it was like for my birth mother and I in those final moments together. I can only imagine the devastation of this separation on us both.
I was left in hospital alone for a further three days before joining my foster family who cared for me [00:52:30] in that time. I will never know. How terrifying, how traumatic for that separation to be. Replicated again, seven months later, where I was placed from foster care to adoption, another bond and attachment broken.
You'll never know how difficult it was for me to grow up in a white family, in a white community, in a white village outside of a white town. A minority in my own family. I grew up with privilege, but there was a point every [00:53:00] day when I felt like I needed a coat of armor to deal with the feelings of difference.
Having to justify my existence in some way looks of disbelief and confusion. When I called out mom to my blonde, adopted mothers mother, sometimes I just didn't avoid, didn't do it to avoid the reaction of others. I experienced feelings of wanting to be invisible because of being black and adopted and knowing nothing of my past.
Invisibility was preferable [00:53:30] to feeling so exposed as a black child in a white family. The time spent wondering who I looked like, why I wasn't with my birth mother, why I hadn't been wanted, and with no one to share those feelings with the trauma of adoption. Adoptees was not recognized when I was placed in 1976.
Love was meant to be enough. It wasn't. There is growing. Understanding that adoption is traumatic, but adoptees like myself are still not invited [00:54:00] to share are often painful experiences of adoption because you chose to rape a child. I've had my birth identity stolen from me on my maternal and paternal sides.
What has been passed down to me is intergenerational trauma, a family heirloom. I'd rather not have. You'll never know how aware I was of my difference. In addition to having little knowledge about my birth family to then learn that at 18 years old that I was conceived in rape, added to the [00:54:30] layers of complexity for me in terms of my identity.
To know I exist because you chose to rape a child. To know that I am for some, the embodiment of one of the worst things that could happen to someone to be pregnant by your perpetrator, to find out what you did to my mother was horrifying and could have been a reason for her not to want to meet me.
That horrendous thought that we may never meet because of what you did wave heavily until we were able to reunite. [00:55:00] I'm more than evidence. I'm more than a witness. I'm more than a productive rape. I'm not your shame and I will not carry the shame and horror of what you chose to do because you chose to rape a child.
I have sacrificed much to pursue justice and to rape conceived people like myself to be seen and heard. We are not our father's sins. We are not rape babies. We are not the rape cause for benefits. We are not the bad seed. You chose to rape a child. [00:55:30] I've had to fight to be recognized as a victim of your crime to try and spare my birth mother from having to testify because you chose to rape a child, and the justice system won't recognize my existence.
My birth mother has had to relive her ordeal to seek justice. This legal process has caused further complexities in the relationship between myself and my birth mother, in my opinion, a deeper split, which is utterly tragic. 'cause you chose to rape a child, [00:56:00] we are still paying the price. It's taken me incredible strength over the last few years to keep fighting for justice.
I've had feelings of utter hopelessness, treated with hostility or simply ignored, invisible. This is a fight I had to take on. The justice was just too unpalatable. You need to be made accountable for the crime you committed. You'll never truly understand the devastating impact of your act of rape on a child has had on two children.
[00:56:30] And the lifelong implications this has had on us both as adults. This sentence is 45 years overdue. The pain you have caused immeasurable.
That's incredible. How did it feel when you read that out?
Oh God, it was so,
I think I said to you, it wasn't just to him, Bennett, although I was just saying to my friend who was in court with me that day, I felt he was, listen, I mean, it was hard. He had a mask on, but I was able to look at him and [00:57:00] he was looking up, he was sort of engaged in what I was saying. Be able to say that hit to him was able to say that in the court to have police officers sitting there who should have been hearing that as well.
It felt really powerful actually, that Yeah. That felt, that, that felt like a cathartic moment Yeah. To finally be in public saying that to him directly. ' cause I know not, not everybody get, gets to do a [00:57:30] victim impact statement. And the fact that I had been able to, again, I had to kind of advocate for myself, but to be able to have the opportunity to stand there and read that was incredible.
Incredibly powerful. Yeah.
Daisy, thank you so much for everything you've shared for telling us your story in so much detail and for telling us about all the amazing things that you've done and are doing.
Thank you so much. I've been, yeah, I've been so [00:58:00] excited to meet you, followed what you've done as well.
I think you are incredible. And yeah, it's just been an honor to be able to speak to you and thank you for helping me share my story. Really do appreciate it. Thank you. .
Isn't Daisy, absolutely amazing what she's been through and what she's done. As a result of it or because of it, or in spite of it, is truly incredible.
please do, if you get a [00:58:30] chance, have a look at the show notes And take a look at some of the links to Daisy's work, to other podcasts that she's done,
And also go and have a look at her new organization now visible, which you can [email protected] visible.org.uk. Thank you Daisy for taking part in this podcast.
Thanks for opening up about what you've been through and about the good stuff, the lemonade that's come from it. Thanks as [00:59:00] ever to everyone who supported this podcast to Dan Breeze for the music and to Ian Cullen for his continuing support. See you next time on the Making Lemonade Podcast.
Making Lemonade is produced and presented by me, Mark O'Sullivan.