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Josh’s Links:
Resurface website: www.resurfaceuk.com
If you've been affected by anything you've heard in this episode, please take care of yourselves, and consider visiting (or contacting) any of these organisations:
www.mind.org.uk
https://www.samaritans.org
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Hi everyone. Before we jump in a note on our content this episode contains themes and discussion that might be upsetting or triggering for some listeners. Please check the show notes for more detailed descriptions And look after yourself.
Hi lemonade makers. How are you? [00:00:30] A bit of an apology to make, first of all, because as you know, there was no episode last week, and that's because I was thwarted by technology. I used to laugh at my dad when I was a teenager at his inability to work, um, the VCR player. And indeed anything else that, that you plugged in.
He just couldn't work it. He didn't know how to make things work. He would get frustrated, he'd throw, uh, remote controls across the room. [00:01:00] Um, and I used to laugh thinking I'm never gonna be that guy. And, uh, here I am. I'm able to fathom even the simplest things sometimes. Maybe I'm being a bit unkind to myself.
You know, I, I, I, I do know how to do a lot of this stuff, but last week I had an issue and I couldn't figure it out and ran out of time. And so that's why there wasn't an episode, really. Sorry about that. But I'm back with a [00:01:30] different episode. I'm gonna be coming back to the one that I was gonna release last week, and, um, I'm not gonna talk for too long as an intro because it's quite a long conversation and a fascinating conversation.
This one I got an email from somebody. Back in May, I think it was saying, would you like to interview for Making Lemonade? Someone who has founded a surf therapy retreat? [00:02:00] And um, I'll be honest, that's the first time anyone's ever said that to me. I said, yes, absolutely. And a few weeks later I sat down virtually with Josh Dixon, who I'm talking in today's episode of Making Lemonade.
Josh, thank you so much for joining me for this episode. I always ask a version of this question at the beginning. Yeah. Which is let's think, how shall I do this one?[00:02:30]
Let's say that you've just turned up at a friend's garden party. Yeah. And you've got stuck with a cousin of that friend who you've never met before.
Yeah.
Small talk isn't coming easily. And they say, so what do you do, Josh? Who are you? What, what are you all about? How do you answer that?
Well, yeah.
Thank you for having me here, and it's a great opportunity to discuss, and that question really leads into my discussion of my, my passion for the transformative [00:03:00] effects of flow states on therapeutic change. Yeah. So what would I say to this person? I would say probably to catch their attention, I would say, oh, I do surf therapy.
And they would probably just go, what's that? And then boom, I'm in. It's not actually what I technically do, but it's a, it's a way of, I mean, it is true. I'm not lying when I say that, but it allows, it allows someone to just think what's that? Yeah. And, and take it from there. Yeah. That's, so that's [00:03:30] what I would say to this person.
You are
absolutely the first person I've met who, who said I do surf therapy. Um, what, tell us more.
You know, to be totally transparent, I don't actually do surf therapy in the traditional sense of what people call surf therapy. I do, I use surfing to deepen therapeutic change after the surfing, but I, it's still co packaged to serve therapy.
I have a background that comes from, I started off as an addictions counselor. I've worked in rehab for years. I became a trauma [00:04:00] specialist within that. And I dunno, around 20 16, 20 17, I noticed that taking people in who were in recovery from substance abuse and other addictive disorders, taking them surfing as just a, a sort of great activity to do was doing something more than just helping them out and having a good time.
And I had, I'd known, and we can talk about this, I'd known about what flow states were intuitively, but [00:04:30] I didn't know about the science, massively know about the science about them then. And the reason I just for the listener is that surfing is a, a sport or activity that really lends itself to getting people into what we call flow state.
And I can define that, but basically I just saw that something was happening more than just having a good time and. I just was think, you know, I've worked in rehab, I understand programs I understand working in one-to-one therapy. I've been doing it for a long time. I'm a [00:05:00] positive psychologist. I, I have this a wide range of knowledge and, and was just like, hold on a sec.
This is going, something's going on here. Can I combine a few things that I know are really effective into a program? And it wasn't like it all came immediately at once. There's the fine tuning that that follows, you know, these kind of eureka moments. But the, the core was there and it was just, let's just try this out.
And I did, and, and it was a little side project. And then the following year we did a few more and it just built up from there. And [00:05:30] then it really gained momentum in 2019 and then bang COVID hit. And it was really hard to do anything for a few years. And then since COVID, we've been building it up again.
But it's, it's surfing is part of an integrated program that that we use. And so that's, that's how, you know, the, if I was talking to that person at the drinks party,
yeah,
I'd be, I probably wouldn't say it as fast as that, but that's what I would, you know, and, and then that would open up the conversation.
I think,
well, I think what's happened now with that [00:06:00] person is that rather than, you know, being satisfied with the answer, you've totally got their attention and you're, you're not gonna be able to shake them off for the rest of the party. Now, um, that's, that's, even if they go off to get a olive on, they're coming back.
They're heading straight back to you. Um, that's a, there's so much, there's so much there work to talk about. Um, and I'm really excited to talk about it. Yeah. Let me go, um, right back. First of all, why did you get into that type of work? That sort of Yeah, that's
a great question. So it, it [00:06:30] all, it all came through well there's many ways of answering that, but.
The I, I was a musician for years and I was a relatively successful musician, and I got to a stage where we got a record deal and we made our first album, and then it was with a great management company. And, and then it as what happens in the music industry, like there was a big falling out between the management label and blah, blah, blah.
And then we couldn't work, and then just things fell apart and I was, I turned 30 by then [00:07:00]and I was like, I don't have the energy to start again. I was not in the best way in relationships with drugs and alcohol. Mm-hmm. So that was, and I was just like, and I, I did a little bit of work for other people.
I sort of got into session work and support, work on tours and stuff, and that was, but I was in early, I, I got, I'd got into early recovery, and I got into early recovery then, because my, I blamed my then girlfriend for. All her problems [00:07:30] were the real issue. But then, you know, it turned out that a large impact on my life had been my childhood.
And you know, my dad who died last year, he, he was an addict in long term rec, long-ish recovery, but he'd had very bumpy time and he had lost his father when he was nine months old. And my parents split up when I was two, and I lived with my grandparents for, they kind of brought me up for three years.
And my grandmother was a very, very difficult lady, [00:08:00] although I loved her because I had that young connection, but she was kind of like this, you know, we had, I've got 23 first cousins, so I've got this really extended family that's riddled with positives and negatives and mm-hmm. Um, and then, you know, my parents were, you know, weren't together.
And then I ended up going to boarding school and that brings a whole load of. Aspects to it as well. And then and then I sort of got into [00:08:30] this kind of lifestyle of being a musician for a long time. And and then what happened is everything came to a head and I, I started attending this support group of a place that, and was run by the guy who had run the rehab that my dad went to when I was a kid.
And I was there and he, and he said, come back, I think you'd be really good at this. Come back in a year. And I started training you up and I was so kind of lost and bewildered about what to do. And I [00:09:00] really enjoyed these groups and I really enjoyed everything I was learning and I'd studied philosophy and psychology at university, but I hadn't gone into that.
And that was kind of enough to get a foot in the door and start training in that world. And it just went from there. And just, I started off as with addiction counseling, training and then, realized very early on that it's important to get a niche, like something that you, you know, so I trained to really work with post-traumatic Stress disorder, PTSD, and built up, you know, quite a successful private [00:09:30]practice whilst simultaneously working in a rehab, great rehab in South Cancer called Start to Stop, which I absolutely loved working for.
And just things built up from there. And as, as you expand your interests and as I expanded my interests and we started surfing again. Started surfing. I used to be a skater as a kid, and I used to love snowboarding and, and, uh, it, it all just sort of came together one time.
Mm-hmm.
You know, this is what often happens is [00:10:00] you integrate a bunch of different things at once at the same time.
And, and then suddenly you have this moment where something new is created Yeah. From all those integrations. And that was what, that was what happened. And it was just like, Hey, let's, let's see if there's something there and tested it like a good scientist to see if, if it had legs. And it, it seems to have gathered legs and grown and here we are talking.
That's so true, isn't it? About things combining, I've [00:10:30] often said in my work as a writer especially that my most successful ideas have come about when several. Ideas have sort of coalesced and become something much greater than they would've been, the sum is greater than it is parts, but
that's, well we could call it an emergent prop.
They call it emergent properties from, you know, lower things that like, you know, we might argue that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and, the these, [00:11:00] so when enough things come together, something new is created.
Yeah.
That emerges from that. And I thought you were gonna say that.
The best idea, that's what Nietzsche said. The best ideas come after a long walk.
No, I agree with that too. Yeah, we I've often been a fan of the, no, I'm constantly a fan of the, the phrase take a character for a walk. So when, as a writer, when I'm writing something and having real problems with a character, getting the voice, getting the motivation, understanding [00:11:30] that person's journey, what's going on for them, a walk is the thing that always sorts it out.
I always feel like I'm, when I'm writing, I always feel like I'm actually in the room with those people, you know, kind of round a big table with those people. But, um, yes, no, so I, I, I do, I do absolutely agree with that. Just going backwards again. Yeah, sure. What was, um, what was the moment in that time of crisis?
That you knew. Maybe it wasn't [00:12:00] one single moment, but what, what ha what was the sort of turning point for you when you and
that Yeah, that's a really great question. That the turning point was just it was a period of that. I think a lot of people can relate to this. Waking up at three in the morning and not being able to get back to sleep again.
And the sort of craziness and paranoia and just kind of edginess that comes from that. And I now know that, that the reason that that that manifests is because we don't, you're not getting any REM sleep.
[00:12:30] Which is kinda about therapy sleep. But at the time I wasn't sitting there thinking I'm not getting enough RM sleep.
I was just thinking, oh God, I need to sleep. And this like waking up with your heart pounding, not knowing where my life was going and my relationship at the time was breaking down. And I was very fortunate. So I mentioned that when I was in re rehab, not when I was in rehab, but my dad was in rehab. I was taken by some people associated with his sort scene to a, what's called an an INE meeting, which is a sup, [00:13:00] a mutual support group for children of a addicts and alcoholics.
But as such was the nature of my family dynamics at the time, no one told me that my dad was in rehab. I was just told that he'd had a bit of a breakdown 'cause no one was sort. So I was like, I was at this meeting, I was like, why the hell am I at this meeting all about a alcoholism? And you know, my dad didn't drink, so I was just like, but he did a lot of drugs.
But you know, when the people are talking about a alcoholism, I was, you know, I was, you know, I was 13 or something. I didn't know what was going and [00:13:30] that was it. But, and I, but that east, that same Easter, Easter, it was an Easter holidays that same time my mom had gone off to India or somewhere, so she wasn't around for the holidays.
And I was staying with my dad, and he was in a, in this, you know, involved in this recovery scene with these people. And I had a really great holidays. I was spending all my time at one of his new friend's place, just off the Portobello road somewhere, and sort [00:14:00] of like an unofficial halfway house. And I just had a really great time with these, like really interesting people and they were really loving and kind and we had a great time and fast forward 20 years or something, whatever it was, nearly 20 years, this was in the back of my mind that there was a way out of this because loads of people don't know that there are, are solutions to this and ways out and support groups.
And so I was very, you know, very fortunate that I'd been introduced to that. I mean, I didn't take [00:14:30] any notice of it much at the time, consciously, but it, it was enough to lodge in.
Yeah.
And so I knew that you know, and I, I looked it up online and. And then I started attending this support group. And in that the, this guy was a bit of a mentor for me at the time, called Dr.
Robert Le Fever. He, you know, really helped, like pushing me in the right directions and, and that, so it sort of all came from there. But it was definitely that seed that was planted as a young teenager that I'm, I'm to this day, very, very grateful for [00:15:00] that. I didn't know any, you know, I, I even though it was sort of disguised amongst all this kind of you know, it was very blurry and hazy while I was there and everything, but it was enough to to, to lodge in the lodge in the psyche and I could re, I reached out to that bit of that nugget of knowledge and yeah.
So I'm very, very grateful for that.
So you go from needing help yourself Yeah. To being one of those [00:15:30] people that is helping others. What was that, what was that shift like? So
we call that I'm sort of such a cliched textbook wounded healer. Yeah. It's the, it's the expression. My supervisor who's so supervisors, someone who I, I see regularly to keep me in check.
And it's a condition of being a, a therapist is my supervisor says, yeah, one of the reasons that so many people get into the field is they, they have such a profound shift themselves that they would like to [00:16:00] share that with other people. And it's also, also combined with that is the human psyche is fascinating.
Beyond, I'm absolutely kind of obsessed with the mind and psychology in general and, uh, so in, in, you know, in all forms, the negative, the positive depression, flourishing, all of these things are absolutely like fascinating to me. And so that was born a sort of rekindling of, I'd say [00:16:30] mild interest in psychology.
Really grew and also a desperation of what the hell am I gonna do with my life right now? And the op, the opportunity to do something and have someone supporting me and have my back at that time enabled me to, to, you know, to start doing the trainings and get into the field. So it's, I'd say a combination of luck support and my own willingness to investigate and take chances.
I'd say all those [00:17:00] three things came together.
Before we get onto talking about the, the surfing and Yeah, yeah. The combination of that with other things. How does it feel when you are helping someone? How does it feel when you are, I dunno if this is a, a correct or good way to describe it, but facilitating that person's recovery, supporting them through that.
Yeah, again, it's a re it. It's deeply frustrating when someone is pushing back and you and [00:17:30]you really, you know, you really want the best for someone. And it's a bit like, I, I often liken it that you're taking someone to the gym and introducing them to all the equipment and they just sit in the corner refusing to participate.
That could be really, really frustrating, but at the same time, I have enough experience and compassion now to know why, you know, it's like, why is someone not even able to do that? And that's, that's where the work needs to start. It's very, very moving to be involved, even if you're just a catalyst in [00:18:00] someone's change process.
I, I sometimes feel deep pride in the work. I feel very, very loving towards clients who, who make these changes. I feel blessed. It's, it's a whole range of emotions there that, that go with it, but it, it, it feels great. I'm, you know, I'm a firm believer that the client does most of the work, and that if I'm able to just help move things along for them, it's a bit like, um, you know, if someone [00:18:30] has a, a wound that won't heal, and you notice that there's quite like a couple of chips of stone in there or something and you come along and you take those bits out and you put a little bit of antiseptic on and then it heals.
It's their body that's done the healing. I've just helped facilitate that a bit so that, that, that is very much part of it. But, you know, there's been some amazing success stories that I've been a part of and it's just, it's a real privilege to, to witness that. It's a bit like having access to [00:19:00] the most incredible movies, that are real life. And you know, you have that select, you are part of the select audience who gets to, to see this transformation. Yeah. It can be quite magical.
Yeah. Everybody's life, everybody's story is an epic in its own right, isn't it? A grand sprawling
narrative. Yes. Or it has the potential to be an epic, you know, there are some people's lives who are, I'm helping them make it, or, encourage them to make it epic.
'cause some people's lives are so [00:19:30] small, yet the potential in every single person is so huge. Yeah. So it, it, it is amazing. Really
brilliant.
And but I'll, I'll often say that, I won't often say, I'll say that often what happens is while you are doing the work, it's just kind of happening a bit like when you are I don't know, let's say you're going to the gym.
For a while, or you are swimming again or running or something you, while you're doing it, you're not noticing the [00:20:00] changes, but then when you next go to the playing football or whatever it is and you notice you're much fitter or something, there's a definitely a retrospective element to it as well.
You're a bit less as sometimes you get a Yeah, you're less out of breath or you're just like you've got a bit more pace or a lot more fit, you know, general fitness and sometimes you, you won't know how much impact the work has had and then you'll get a little note a year later saying, oh, by the way I got that promotion at work and I, I thought I was gonna be [00:20:30] fired when I first met you.
And so you, you, it can be, you can be quite, there could be long periods before you really know what the impact of something is.
Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about, you mentioned earlier that, um, you were a skater. Were you one of those kids down on the South Bank underneath the Um,
I did. I did. I did go to the South Bank quite a lot as a kid.
But only on holidays. 'cause I was at boarding school and I was, you know, and then there were like big scary boys there. So I was sort of on the side watching, but I always, I always loved that [00:21:00] feeling of just that motion and everything. And, um, and then I, and then I, I transferred that all to drums and guitars when I was a teenager, like a later teenager.
But, um,
and that,
yeah, so that, yeah, I started, that was my first kind of skating was probably my first passion, obsession.
And when did you start surfing?
Well, I only started surfing when I was in my late thirties. I'm 48 now, but in my late thirties that I was on a, I was, when I was working at the [00:21:30] rehab, I was.
Great. One of my, a great friend of mine, and he was kind of, he was my unit head at the time. He was like, he was really insistent that we took a break every three months. And this was, it was really great advice and a really great thing to do, but it also meant the program could run properly. 'cause if you took like two and a half, three weeks out, it really messed things up.
But primarily it was put in place for our good self care and to help avoid burnout. And I had this, you know, it was time to take another break and I didn't really have [00:22:00] anything to do. And a another colleague said, oh, I know someone who's running a yoga retreat and you quite like yoga, weren't you? Go? And so I was like, I went on this yoga retreat in Morocco and on the last day they said, do you wanna try surfing?
And I was like, yeah, cool, I'll try surfing. And, and then I was just like hooked immediately. And then I went, well, I wouldn't say hooked immediately. I really enjoyed it. So then I booked my next. Holiday, and I mean next three months [00:22:30] later, I booked a, a, like a yoga surf retreat and then didn't surf again for a year and then booked another one.
And then was like, another friend of mine was like, Hey, why don't we just start surfing in England so we can go at weekends and stuff? So it started from there. And, and so that was in my late thirties when I, I, I kind of got the, got that bug. But I, what was really interesting, I recognized the feeling from other activities and what I've since learned, and I mentioned earlier in the [00:23:00] talk, is what the feeling is this thing called flow state.
Mm-hmm.
And surfing really lends, you, lends itself to flow state, but flow is this, state of optional consciousness where you feel your best, you're performing at your best. You're total sportsman will call about, talk about being in the zone. You're just completely a one with your, what you're doing, you are losing a sense of time.
You merging with the task at hand. You feel your best. It's kind of effortless efforts [00:23:30] and it becomes something that you chase in itself. And in other words, for flow, flow state was this term coined by Maha Chick sent Maha in the 1970s and this sort of expanded from there. But people have been writing about flow states for forever, but another names are being in the zone.
Jazz musicians will talk about being in the pockets. Artists will talk about being in flow, you know, it definitely is this, this state. Uh, runners high is [00:24:00] another, yeah. Word for float state, and. The amazing thing about flow is it feels the same regardless of the activity you're doing. So that's why I say I recognized it as recognize this feeling.
It's the same feeling that I get forming when I was really in the zone performing music, playing the guitar felt the same as when I was skating, and it felt the same as when I was surfing or snowboarding or, and it's like, and, and there's a reason for that. We can get to that. But this stake [00:24:30] or flow is just like, wow.
That's when I really feel a totally present. I call it forced mindfulness. These are activities that make you be in the present. And flow is like people report flow, being in flow, um, writing, dancing, painting, ceramics diving, climbing. Playing all sorts of sports, surfing, skateboarding, um, is a, it's just you think how, what a diverse range of activities I just said there, but yet they [00:25:00] all lend themselves to getting yourself into flow state.
And what, what, I mean, I can throw some things out about flow state that immediately caught my attention. So McKinsey found that you're 500% more productive in flow. Harvard found that you had days of heightened criti, heightened creativity, having been in flow. University of of Sydney found 430% increase in creativity and problem solving while being in flow.
So these are, [00:25:30] and there's many other studies that keep backing this up. So not only does it feel amazing, but it has this tremendous potential for creativity and change. And I've, you know, a lot of what we call eureka. Moments come from having been in flow and there's a very specific flow cycle.
And the recovery phase is the last part of that flow cycle. And that's often where the great ideas come in and you think, where did these ideas come from? And actually [00:26:00] comes from all the work you'd be doing just beforehand. So when Nietzche says the best ideas come after a long walk, he's done the long walk.
Now the long Walk for Nietzsche is not like a walk through the Norfolk countryside. That's nice and flat and gentle. It's a long walk in the mountains, in the Alps, so that's gonna have that challenge that folk, that real, like the thing about getting into flow is you have to be really challenged and there has to be a, a slight sense of [00:26:30] danger or heightened anxiety to make you focus to then get into the zone.
Yeah,
of
course. So walk through, um. Alps is a very different thing to walk, you know, to the shops in London. Um, so yeah, so the, so I noticed with the, you know, the flow state stuff that came, you know, and so as I said, surfing really lends people to getting into flow because it's so, it's so absorbing.
And what, and a really important thing about being in flow is something we call immediate feedback. [00:27:00] So if you're standing on the skateboard, you know you're moving, you're getting that feedback that it's working. If you are writing a play or a script, you know it's working because what you are writing, either the pen is kind of writing itself or when you are reflecting on what you've written it, it just is, you just know in that moment it's good.
And so you're getting that feedback. And actually this is a great, like, I love doing this question to groups of people, but like, do you know what the number [00:27:30] one flow activity in the world reported by people.
Honestly, no.
No. Yeah. And most people say, is it meditation? Is it running is, and these are all great activities. Actually, the number one flow state activity is a great conversation. And it, you know, that time when you're looking at watching, it's like, oh my God, I've gotta go like that was you, you've met someone who's really interesting.
They peak your, they, they challenge you. They're just kind of just like maybe a [00:28:00] slightly above you. Like we always talk about when I say above you, I'll give context that, that like if I'm playing football, I used to like playing football. I like school level football. I was not a great footballer, but I used to have a football team at university and we used to play there.
And if I'm playing, was playing football with people of my ability or just a tiny bit better, I could raise my game to that if I was playing football with a whole bunch of toddlers. It would be very [00:28:30]sweet, but I would ne wouldn't get into flow. 'cause I'm not being challenged
enough. It's not gonna stretch you.
No, it's not gonna stretch me. But if I find myself on the Premiership football game, I'm gonna have a panic attack. 'cause I, I don't have the skillset. So you want to be doing an activity where the skill is just that tiny and they found, Stephen Kotler was talking about this, found four to 5% above your skillset means that you can reach and stretch towards it without breaking.
And that's kind of, oh that's fascinating. The real, the [00:29:00] real sweet spot. So this is why you can get into flow with a new activity because 'cause your skillset is so low and you're learning it, you're still fully focused. And as you get better at something, you have to keep upping the challenge to maintain that focus.
That's But if we go back Yeah.
The great conversation when I said like someone is just above you. What I mean is like. Maybe they just know that tiny bit, that bit more about a subject you're really interested in or something. So, and, but you know, you are in flow 'cause you're getting [00:29:30] the immediate feedback.
'cause the conversation is going great and you're being challenged and you are asking good questions and you are able to hold the answers that are coming back and then ask another question. And so that's like, that's actually the number one flow state activity reported. And then the second one is outside of extreme sports is actually Montessori education.
Kids are amazing at flow and flowing, and that's where they do most of their learning. And [00:30:00]Montessori is set up. The whole environment of Montessori schools is set up to get people into flow, to tap into that accelerated learning. And that's why kids in Montessori are reading and writing often a year ahead of their peers, often more.
And yet they're free to do what they want within the confines of the environment. They're not forced to do anything, but they, it's because of the, the fact that the whole environment's set, set up to get kids into flow. And [00:30:30] fast forward 20, 30 years, the, the CEOs in Silicon Valley, a lot of them that went to Montessori, to set up all these flow gyms in, uh, in Google and those places for that very reason.
Hey everyone.
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So what I found was when I recognized that feeling of, of flow and surfing was.
And then I, I started and I did a lot of work on training in positive psychology and a big part of positive psychology movement is so positive. Psychology is that branch of psychology that studies human flourishing. It's the science of human flourishing. And within that flow is a big part of that. It's a big part of the literature.
And Martin Saligman is one of the preeminent psychologists in the world. [00:32:30] He calls it engagement, but it's a big part of his model of flourishing and happiness. And so I, I did a deep dive into that world and I was like, ah, this is, that. This is what we're talking about here. It's what it was like when I was skating or playing the drums or playing the guitar or meeting great people or really falling in love with someone where you're really riffing with them and totally at one with them.
Or when you're really like, engaged at work or surfing or skiing or these, all these sorts of things. Writing. [00:33:00] Uh, I definitely got into flow when I was writing my thesis. This feeling. It's like, ah. And then I, I, I trained more in it, read more, discovered more, and it was like there's these profound enhancements that come from being in flow, which the coaching world is all over.
So coaches know all about flow. Yeah. Executive coaching and business coaches, but no one in psych like sort of clinical psychology psychotherapy [00:33:30] knew about this. And I was like, well, hold on a sec. What if we take that, put it into therapeutic environments? Maybe we can use that creativity and productivity gains to, to deepen and enhance therapeutic change.
And that's exactly what we found. And that's now what my mission is, is to facilitate and change behavioral health using flow science to accelerate therapeutic change. And PE people are quite open to it. But you know, I think a [00:34:00] lot of people that have a clue what I'm talking about. It's the inevitable pushback as well, but we are finding that this is a really amazing thing that's happening.
And so I'm very, very proud to be bringing that to that area. You know, the, I hats off to the coaches and psychologists who've been studying this for years, and it's time to bring it into the therapeutic environment.
Well, I'm sure most people listening to what you've just been saying will have been thinking about their own times when they felt they're in flow, [00:34:30] you know, whatever the activity is that's got them to that state.
I was thinking as you were talking, and when you said about conversation, I thought, you know, that's exactly why I like doing things like this because I love talking to people about their experiences, when they're different to mine. Finding out what that has been like, what that. Outlook on the world is their perspective, their way of even just talking about what's happened to them or what they've been through.[00:35:00]
That is definitely a time when I feel I'm in flow, being present for that conversation and, and helping that conversation to, to take place. And, you know, those, those findings from different studies that you mentioned, that's difficult to argue against, isn't it? You know, th those are, those aren't small numbers, small percentages that you're talking about.
They're not. They're not. And they're, and, and, you know, for all your [00:35:30] marketeers and branding people and social media, period, that's the hook and that's the genuine hook to grab people's attention. So once, once, like, so the other thing about flow that is really, really interesting is that why does it feel so good?
And so when you're in flow you get a whole cocktail of neuromodulators neurotransmitters released. The brain. You, you're flooded with dopamine. And dopamine is all about, it's not a feelgood neurotransmitter. Actually, neuromodulator dopamine is all [00:36:00] about, uh, motivation. It motivates you forward. Now, I dunno if you have been around people who've done a lot of cocaine, but cocaine is the drug most associated, one of them drugs associated with huge releases of dopamine.
And what people are doing on cocaine is, uh, they're talking about making plans together. It's all about, we're gonna set up this business and we're gonna build a house and we're gonna, you know, it's all, and we can do this and you can do that. It's all about connections. Integrating. Yeah. And possibilities.[00:36:30]
And possibilities. And that's what dopamine is doing. So when you're in flow, you're flooded with dopamine and which drives you forward, it makes you want to keep going as well. So you wanna keep learning, keep integrating, keep this acquisition of knowledge and connections going. And then you're also flooded with anandamide.
Now anandamide is kind of the bliss joy neurotransmitter. Uh, anandamide is most associated with, uh, [00:37:00] THC. Uh, so THC binds where anandamide binds. So it's like, it's everything makes everything a little bit more sparkly, a little bit more kind of shiny. So you've got an mite going, you've got dopamine going, and you are also, uh, flooded with endorphins.
Endorphins, endorphins stands for endogenous morphine. So morphine made from within. So you are getting this unbelievable hit of opiates, dopamine. So you could, you could say, this is how I used to, [00:37:30] when I said talk using a hook. When I was in rehab, I used to say to the clients there, Hey, I can, I can show you a way where you can get the perfect hit of.
Heroin, cocaine and weed in the perfect dose with no side effects. You wanna know, and their eyes light up. Bang, I've, got 'em over. They're, they're not so interested in the 430% creativity and the productivity gains yet, yet they will be. But, but like I was able, do you wanna get the best high possible without any [00:38:00] side effects and all it's gonna do is be good for you?
Uh, and then the eyes light up. And then when you come out of flow into what we call the recovery phase, you are, um, flooded with serotonin and oxytocin. Well, oxytocin is the bonding drug. It's what bonds us to babies. It's what bonds us romantically. And serotonin is the, is the neuromodulator most associated with ecstasy connection, love.
[00:38:30] So you come out of the flow state, it's all about action. And dopamine. Dopamine is, is the great motivator and serotonin is the great stillness. It moti, it doesn't motivate you for it. It calms you down and chills you out. So you go from this very motivated state, this very calm state, very loving state.
So you're getting, as I said to said to people, you're getting like this cocktail of amazing drugs with no side effects. [00:39:00] Yeah, the only side effect is it requires a lot of energy to be in flow. So you do have to have really good recovery. And this is why we see time and time again that people can only really, really be in full focused flow state for about 90 minutes to 120 minutes.
And the writers will report this. The footballers will report this, the artists will report this. Now you can do good work, not in flow. So you can do. Great editing. Now if you're writing let the pen [00:39:30] flow for two hours, then do your editing. You could delegate, you can do all sorts of things outside of flow state, but it does require a lot of energy.
So you'd have to be well nourished. You have to get good sleep. You have to set yourself up to be able to get back into flow again and get back into flow again. So if you don't do the good recovery, you'll just Right. You'll just be frazzled.
That all makes so much sense to me. Thinking about my own experiences of that.
I'm aware that we haven't got that much time left [00:40:00] penciled in and, and we, we should really talk about the, um, the surfing and, and how that relates to this.
Well, so surfing is like, so a really important thing is, which, which I, I was talking about earlier is we've gotta have this sweet spot between challenge and, skill level and taking people surfing is great because one, it's fun for people to try it out. Two, a lot of people think surfing's cool, so you kind of like, we win people that win people over that way. [00:40:30] Third thing is that you can do it at any age, you know, before my dad died last year, he was 75 and sadly he got pancreatic cancer and went very, very quickly.
But he was fit as a fiddle before that and he was surfing. He was, you know, in his seventies. I see people in their eighties surfing, you're falling into water. So very few injuries, surfing. It's great for getting you, you have to be fully focused 'cause otherwise the waves are gonna batter you and, [00:41:00] um, you're gonna fall off.
And it also has the added thing that no other activity has. You're moving on something moving, so you get this extra kind of. Extra spiritual. I mean, I call it spiritual, but this extra exotic sensation from moving on. Something moving. And we do a lot of our work in Morocco. So it's, it's off, it's warm, it's nice and warm.
The water isn't warm, we're in wetsuits, but it's [00:41:30] warm. And it allows people to really sort of get into something for a couple of hours. And this is what I call the forced mindfulness effect is for those hour and a half, two hours when you're trying to learn to surf or you're trying to, you're trying to progress in your surfing skills, you cannot think about anything else for those couple of hours.
'cause you have to be fully focused in the moment. Yeah. And as a result of that, you are not thinking [00:42:00] about your mortgage, you're not thinking about. You gotta do at work. You're not thinking about problems in the relationship, you're not thinking about your tax bill, you're not thinking about all those emails you gotta send.
You are outta the stress. And for some people, that's really important just to have that respite, that temporary relief. So the force mindfulness aspect allows people to be present for a few hours. Now, do that in a program over a week, and that's like 14 [00:42:30] hours of someone not fretting in many ways. So it allows them to, and it's not just fretting, it could be the horrific abuse you suffered as a child, that haunts you every day.
Well, for those couple of hours, you're not thinking about it. Oh man. Yeah. Um, it could be the explosion that you witness. You know, I've had military people who were like, I, I was able to be present and in my body for two hours without. The distraction of the traumatic origin or the depressive origin or [00:43:00] my A DHD slowed down for those moments, or my OCD was just gone for those two hours 'cause I was just fully in the zone.
And so there is a tremendous therapeutic aspect for something like surfing. You could do it with diving, you could do it with climbing, you could do it with skiing. You know, there are other activities you could do, but I just think surfing really lends itself well to this. So we have that element that's deeply therapeutic, but I don't call that the therapy.
A lot of other surf therapy [00:43:30] organizations who are doing amazing work, they call that the therapy. They take people surfing, they do like a, a, a group maybe before or after, or both. And they do it say once a week over six weeks. And they're getting fantastic results and I love what they're doing. But in, in the work that I'm doing, I'm doing it say over a week.
We are taking that forced mindfulness and distraction and flow state that people are getting themselves into. And then we're doing the therapy afterwards. So if I'm working on a one-to-one basis for [00:44:00] someone, we go into the EMDR, which is a, an evidence-based therapy for post-traumatic stress disorder, depression and other behavioral health issues.
Or if it's a group program, we go into the, what we call the experiential group work that we do together. And so we're taking all those positive benefits of flow that come from the surfing into the therapeutic works. We, it is sort of, and that's what's enabling people to open up, go deeper much [00:44:30] quicker.
They're flooded with serotonin and oxytocin following it. You know, the, the vibe on the bus back from the surfing is everyone's just sitting there like with a bit of a grin but not saying anything. I
agree. And that's when I know that feeling so well. Yeah.
So that, and with that feeling. And that state is the best state to do therapy in.
I, yeah. People are, people are disarmed, they're trusting, they're open and they're ready. They're ready, [00:45:00] basically. And they're a little bit tired and 'cause they're a little bit tired, they're a little bit less, the defenses aren't quite so strong. And so that's what we're using to really accelerate.
The therapeutic change. And, and so we thank the surfing in the ocean for that. I thank all the positive psychologists who did their research and flows stuff and yeah that's what we're doing and that's why the surfing. That makes sense.
That's so interesting. I've never surfed in my life and, um, over the course of [00:45:30] this conversation, I've absolutely decided I need to try it at some point.
I, there's a couple of things, if you've, I know it's nearly one o'clock. Yeah, I've got, if you've got a few more minutes, I've got, I've time. That'd be wonderful. I mean, I, I could talk for a very long time to you about all of this. I, I find it all fascinating. There are a couple of things I wanted to say from what you were talking about.
One is I imagine that connection with nature is a massive part of it. I've, I've spoken to other guests on the podcast, [00:46:00] um. Who, who've mentioned the part that nature plays in, in what they do and in, in the, in the work they do. Yeah. And that, that force and that idea that you, you know, you, there's this bigger source of energy at play and at work and, you know, I can get quite sort of spiritual about these things increasingly so, actually yeah.
Over the last couple of years. But I, I can, I can well imagine that, that, that [00:46:30] plays a role in, in, in what's happening. There's,
there's something called the overview effect, which is what people get. Mostly the astronauts apparently have the strongest overview effect. But something that Angie Huberman talks about a bit is that when we're surfing or hiking and these sort of things, we get to see a full horizon all the time, which does something to.
The way the eyes work and the brain works. And I'm not exactly sure exactly what it does, but it, I know that it has this, this calming effect [00:47:00] that when we're in cities and we're not getting much horizon, that's part of what's going on. And also there's that stillness. Some people like to say I like being in the mountains or by the sea.
'cause it makes, it reminds me of how small I'm I like to reframe them and actually just say, I, I love the fact that within something so vast, I still can be part of it and, and be connected to it. So I, I, you know, my spirituality is, I'm not religious at all. But spirituality for me is [00:47:30] that it's basically my consciousness.
It's all the parts of me that are not physical. My ideas, my values, my mind, and this, you know, I love being connected to the, the energy of the ocean and connected to the world around me. And this the beauty of it all is, is so invigorating and the energy and all of that. So yeah, you're absolutely, that's a big part of it.
I love that feeling of being metaphorically a drop in the ocean and also reminding [00:48:00] myself that it's impossible to be a drop in the ocean without also being the ocean. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, that comes into my mind often, every day. I think one of the things I've spoken about a lot and other people in this podcast have spoken about a lot is that I think of it as an energy that certainly I've experienced that has come.
Almost [00:48:30] immediately after those times of huge crisis or trauma, things going very, very wrong. And I wonder if you, if you, you have any thoughts on that? It's often, you know, for me, some of my biggest achievements have come directly from, in spite of, because of the negative things that have happened to me,
there's a huge amount in that.
So in some instances it will be, um, po what we call [00:49:00] post-traumatic growth, PTG and ESH and Calhoun's great work and others around most traumatic growth. So I really like Stephen Joseph's analogy. I dunno if you've heard of it, called the broken vase analogy, which is,
remind me what that is. Yeah,
so, so what this is that, um, I, growing up as a kid, I'd often see my grandparents and other places people would have a vase and often they were broken and they were repaired with this special tape on the inside.
And we can see a VARs that. We know it's damaged, but it's still beautiful [00:49:30] and it still, has aesthetic value. But we know that every time it, it breaks, it weakens. It's, it's structurally it's weakened and weakened and weakened becomes more and more fragile. And what Stephen Joseph is saying is that that often the way we approach what happens to us, we can choose to be to try and carry on as if nothing's really changed.
So let's just say that you were in a, in a very loving marriage, and you had a few children, and then your husband dies and you're just gonna carry on as if [00:50:00] he hadn't died for the sake of the children. And, and then you're like that vase because actually you're trying to be the aesthetic, you're trying to keep the presentation as if everything's carrying on as normal, but you're just so weakened by the event.
Or you can try and. Recognize what has actually happened and create something new from that. And so he says that what we can do is we can take that vase and we can break it down and create a beautiful mosaic from that vase. And that mosaic has [00:50:30] its own new identity and its own strength and its own structure.
It's come from what's happened, but it's its own new thing now. And that is what often happens with post-traumatic growth, is people are able to somehow, consciously or unconsciously take what's happened. And you know, some of the traits of post-traumatic growth are like deepened sense of spirituality a reevaluation of your life and your friends and your values, and, um.
And where you want to go in life and all these [00:51:00] many, you know, these incredible things that we see people do. So I think that is a big part of what happens. But also I think it's really important to acknowledge that sometimes what's happening in these states is I've worked with plenty of people who have gone on to do great things following either deeply traumatic events or hard a adversity, and they go into a dissociative state where they are, or they're in very much in a fight and flight, a hyper aroused state, or a hypo aroused dissociative state.
Yeah. [00:51:30] And they're able to do all sorts of things via the protection of those states. But they're not, but they don't feel that connected to it. So some people are like, yeah, you know, my I lost my partner and I just focused on my business and I was just so kind of charged and I did this, that, and the other, but I've never been able to actually connect with it.
So I think that sometimes. The way people are able to, you know, in inverted commas really succeed following adversity is [00:52:00] because of post-traumatic growth. And sometimes I think it's because they're in, they're in that protective state of dissociation or fight flight and freeze. And that's why some people can feel very connected to what they've done.
And some people feel very disconnected to what they've done, even though from distance it looks like they're thriving. Yes. And so that has, that has to be really looked at. And it's subtle. And even the, there's some amazing research that Stephen [00:52:30] Coli's Flow Research Collective did. So they looked at what happens in the first few seconds of flow state and what happens in the first few seconds of post-traumatic stress disorder response.
And it's almost identical. There's something called hypofrontality takes place where the prefrontal cortex switches off. And then the level of anxiety and meaning attached to an event either means that you go off into flow or you go off into a post-traumatic stress response. And I think that explains why some [00:53:00] people go into a more post-traumatic growth place or whether they are able to carry on, but they're in a, like a dissociative space.
So those things really need to be looked at. But I totally agree. We see this happen all the time, but it's not always for the same reasons. Sometimes it's because they're coming from a growth place and sometimes they're coming from a protective fight what we call hyper arousal or hyper arousal state.
So hyper as in like hyperactive, like really up and energized, maybe nervous [00:53:30] energy. And hypo is like, shut down, dissociative, disconnected. 'cause these are survival mechanisms that allow people to carry on. And so I think it can be coming from any one of those places.
That makes so much sense. Yes. That makes an awful lot of sense.
Oh, I wish we, I do wish we had longer. I'm sure, you know, we could always have another conversation at some point. I'm coming back to people easy. Um, let me ask you this. It's my, it's my final [00:54:00] question. What would you say to people who have or are experiencing something difficult, traumatic, challenging, and I, you know, you, you've. You've got quite a unique perspective, I think, because you are not only someone who works with people who are in those places, whatever, whatever it looks like, whatever that individual's experience [00:54:30] looks like.
But you've also been there yourself. You've, yeah. You've been to that place and you've come through and your life has changed because of it, and it has kind of directed what you're doing now. What would you say to people in those places? So,
I, I, I would say that the people in those places, not I'm, I would say that kind of obvious things like there is help and if it's, it's there for you, but I think it's really important to get out there is there are certain, what [00:55:00] we call in, in psychotherapy modalities, but ways of working that are curative.
So when we talk about PTSD, post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, it's. There, there are certain modalities that will cure that. It's not a, it's not a sentence for the rest of your life. I've worked with so many people who are like, yeah, that was then, and this is now. And they really mean that that they've, they've been, they've allowed through the work to put things in the past that they can thrive and flourish in the present.[00:55:30]
So it doesn't have to be a sentence for the rest of your life. You know, there, there is a concerning thing that a lot of teenagers say to me, that the way language is used now has shifted. So people will talk about my PTSD, my, this thing of, that's my identity. Mm-hmm. And I don't wanna let go of it. But you can let go of it.
And there, there are choices. E even though it feels like there aren't any choices and it, once you've been activated or triggered. There are very few choices at play, but prior to that there are [00:56:00]choices you can reach out and if you want to change and you want to let go of a lot of these symptoms and the way you see the world and the way you think about it and the, and your automatic responses to certain environments and things that can be cured.
'cause I've seen it so many times and the evidence is there. It's about finding the right modalities. If you are struggling with not depression, but what we might call PTSD or, or what trauma, a lot of talk therapies are [00:56:30] very ineffective and actually can cause. Make things worse. So just understanding that, that, so you want to be reaching out the two gold standard therapies out there are what we call EMDR and trauma focused CBT.
And they both come out equal in all the random clinical trials, and they're both brilliant. So there is hope, there is. There is definite help. There's also amazing things you can do that will help symptom relief. So not only do we have to be looking at curing things, but there are [00:57:00] things that we can do for symptoms.
So yoga is fantastic. Certain forms of yoga, in particularly what we call trauma sensitive yoga, yeah, it's absolutely fantastic for symptom relief. There are certain breath work tools that are really great. So I don't recommend box breathing like everyone else does for symptom relief. 'cause box breathing is often about building resilience.
It's not about calming the nervous system, but resonant breathing or coherent breathing. Very effective. You can Google that, you can look at that on [00:57:30] YouTube. The physiological sigh is Andrew Human talks about a lot, but you can look that up. That's an incredibly effective way of reducing anxiety. Uh, the Harvard Reappraising anxiety study is a really good, another great way of reducing anxiety.
There are certain cognitive techniques out there that can really help symptom relief. So like learned optimism. I invite people to look that up. Journaling can be very, very, very useful for [00:58:00]people. You know, there are so many great tools out there that are both curative and symptom relief. 'cause when you are in it, you need tools to be able to help bring you down slowly and safely.
And then you also need to be able to do, uh, have the strength to do what I call the surgery the sort of. Psychological surgery that needs to take place so that you can let these things go. Um, you can say, yeah, that was then, and this is now, and [00:58:30] maybe you will even be at a place where I can use what's happened to me or what I've experienced to drive me forward in a positive way.
Now it, it's, it's there, it, it, I can't just click my fingers and make everyone get that. But that's what I'd love people to know that there, there is amazing help out there and ways of dealing with these things and um, and it doesn't have to take that long. You can make a real positive impact in six to eight sessions with the right therapist, the right [00:59:00] someone who's very skilled and the right therapist.
You can make that much of it. And so it's that commitment to yourself. So I would say to people that if you're doubting the help, even if there's 1% of you that wants to get, well, please honor that 1% 'cause. You can have a, a life that's free of a lot of this pain and distress. . Thanks so much to Josh for that conversation and for sharing [00:59:30] his own experiences and the work that has come out of those. I'm so intrigued by what Josh does and, and by the retreats that he runs. I really hope. I can get out there and, and take part in one, one day. I have a feeling I'd be rubbish at it.
But maybe that's not the point though. Maybe it doesn't matter if you're not very good at it. I am. I'm not great with balance or, um, [01:00:00] water or. Anyway, thank you Josh for that conversation.
I loved having it and I hope you enjoyed listening to it
more next week and some exciting news next week as well. So look forward to seeing you again for making Lemonade. Thanks for being here for the Conversation.
Making Lemonade is presented and produced by me. Marcos 11. Music is by Dan Brees, and additional support is from Ian Cullen.
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