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https://www.instagram.com/ashleyjbaptiste/
A link to his book:
https://www.hodder.co.uk/contributor/ashley-john-baptiste/
If you've been affected by anything you've heard in this episode, please take care of yourselves, and consider visiting (or contacting) any of these organisations:
www.mind.org.uk
https://www.samaritans.org
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Hi everyone. Before we jump in a note on our content this episode contains themes and discussion that might be upsetting or triggering for some listeners. Please check the show notes for more detailed descriptions And look after yourself.
Hello. Welcome back to Making Lemonade. I.
And this [00:00:30] episode, it's back to what we usually do, which is a conversation. and my guest this week is someone that I've been trying to talk to actually for, for quite a while now. And we, we couldn't quite make it work for a, for a bit of time, but finally last week we managed to be in the same place at the same time.
My guest this week is the author broadcaster Ashley John Baptist. And if you haven't heard of Ashley, I, first of all, I'd be [00:01:00] surprised because he is a prolific broadcaster. He turns up on the BB, C an awful lot, But in his work, he has talked about being someone. Who came from a background in care, someone who lived with many foster families and in care homes as a child.
And last year he published a book called, looked After a Childhood in Care, which I'm reading at the moment. It's a [00:01:30] fantastic read, it's beautiful, sad, infuriating at times in terms of Ashley's experience, but a really, really important book. And this conversation I think is one of those really important ones because what Ashley's been through, what his journey's been like, and how it's shaped what he does now is something that I think lots of people need to know about.
But also I, it's something. People who've been through something [00:02:00] similar, I think will take great strength and comfort from, but it's also something that I think everybody needs to know about the care system in this country. And I'm sure in many other countries is creaking and, and struggling at the moment.
but it's something we all need to be thinking and talking about. So I hope you enjoy this episode. As much as I enjoyed having the conversation with Ashley John Baptist,
Thank [00:02:30] you so much for coming on and, being a guest here. whenever you are asked to introduce yourself, what do you say?
'cause you do a lot of things, don't you?
I'm Ash. I'm Ashley. I am a broadcaster. an author. But most importantly, I would say in a lot of the spaces that I go, I make the point that I'm care experience, that I grew up in care, in children's social care as a foster kid, I also spent time in a residential care home, and I think that part of who I am is significant part [00:03:00] because it has informed so much of my life and my outlook and what I do as a broadcaster, and I now take so much pride in it.
Yeah. is it fair to say it's absolutely shaped who you are and what you do?
Absolutely. In so many ways it has shaped so much of who I am and being care experienced. speaking of being a dad I'm always thinking back to my own childhood and my time in care. And my girls are at the age that I was when I was [00:03:30] placed into the care system as an infant.
And when I think about the deep attachment and bonds that I have with my girls, it blows my mind to think that I was that young when I was placed into care. To have such critical attachments broken at such a young age,
I know exactly what you're talking about with my own experience. It's different.
But there's something about watching your kids, especially when they reached the age that you were, [00:04:00] when, when big things happened. For me My dad died really suddenly when I was 15. And I've spoken about it a lot and written about it a lot. And when my son turned 15, this is a couple of years ago now, we had a pretty horrendous year for lots of reasons.
And you know, it was difficult time. And as soon as he turned 16, I almost relaxed overnight. It was like in my head, I'd gone, he's [00:04:30] 15, he's who I was when that awful world. Exploding thing happened to me and somehow, you know, that hasn't happened to him, and I kind of relax.
It's like subconsciously all of that was playing in my mind. So I'm really interested to hear you say that you are looking at your daughters now and the way they are and thinking about yourself at that age. So can you tell us about you and your story and what was happening to you when you were that age?
So I was placed into [00:05:00] care around the age of two, and moved between four different foster homes as a child. And I also spent time in a residential care home, which is basically a home of shift workers, other children. There's no consistent parental figure or guardian because indeed it's the shift workers who are supervising you.
I can't remember the first home that I lived in 'cause I was really young. But the second home was remarkably important and special and significant because [00:05:30] it's where I felt at home. It's where I felt, the genesis of my childhood as I remember being with this incredible Caribbean, matriarchal figure who said, I was like her son.
And she said things like, I love you. You'll always be a part of my family. when you hear That affection as a child, and I'm not an expert in early years attachment, but I know enough to know that that sort of language creates steep bond and expectation with a child.
So I thought because of what this Jamaican foster mom said to me, [00:06:00] that that would be my forever home, because she said I was a part of her family. And so I left there when I was around seven or eight. to have that expectation cut short was just tragic. It was like compounded trauma, I'd clearly gone into care because of trauma, but then to have that particular home breakdown, it was really traumatic as an infant, a really deep sense of abandonment.
throughout my childhood, there were these moves and moments of deep projection. over the [00:06:30]years, I suppose I preempted rejection. I grew to not become attached to the homes and the people that I lived with because I knew. That they would let me go. If this Jamaican woman could let me go, who I thought would be my forever home, then the other carers certainly could and would.
that manifested that trauma and that just the precariousness of being a looked after child. It manifested across my childhood, into school, into friendships, my self-esteem, identity. [00:07:00] this is a very personal story and I write about this in my book, looked after, but actually it's the story of so many looked after children.
so many children currently navigating children's social care, being tough between homes, having a transient of relationships with adults, be their professionals, foster care or social workers and so on. And not having any sense of permanency or stability. for some people foster care is great.
They find their forever home, they get great matches. [00:07:30] But I would say, it's more common for the care system to be really turbulent, for a child who's navigating it.
I've got your book in front of me, looked after and I have here look, I'm gonna hold it up for proof.
Yeah, it is.
And
I read the start of it a few weeks ago, and, the person who I think you were just describing there is Joyce, who you talk about in the story. So, just to rewind a little bit, what were the circumstances in which you were put into care originally?
That's one [00:08:00] that, brings in the story of my birth mother. So I suppose the appropriate thing to say there would be that she was in a really vulnerable position.
she was very young. She was in her late teens, I don't think she was an adult. She herself was a victim of a range of traumas.
And so when I was born, she just simply didn't have the agency to look after me.
Yeah. And so, understandably, either she turned to, or the care system kind of stepped in at [00:08:30]that point. And what is your earliest memory of that happening if you don't mind me asking?
Well, I can't remember a lot of it.
I can't remember when I first went into care, you know, and, when I start my book looked after, which is about my time in care, I say that it all begins with Joyce. As far back as I can remember, there was just always Joyce. It was only when I got my records because when you grew up in care, social workers and professionals write about you and you can access your care files once you're an adult.
It was only when I [00:09:00] looked at my files, my care files that I realized that I had a home that I never even knew about because I couldn't remember it.
Gosh, I can't even imagine what that feels like. Actually. I suppose it just becomes your normal, doesn't it? It is your normal 'cause you don't know, any different.
Absolutely. I think you normalize when you're in care, you can normalize a lot of mistreatment and bad treatment. I normalized being moved between homes. I normalized being on the periphery of a family because I was not the [00:09:30] birth child. I normalized at times verbal abuse. I had one foster mom who called me a mistake, and at no point did I feel the agency and, legitimacy to be able to flag that to social services.
So let me just speak for me. I think because I knew that homes were often hard to get and it was hard to be fostered because I was in the care home 'cause they couldn't find me a long term foster placement. You are [00:10:00] implicitly made to feel really grateful that, people are taking me in, having me in their home and cooking for me and looking after me.
And I was unduly grateful. for a lot of the. People who looked after me. And I suppose the collateral of that is that when I am mistreated, I didn't feel able to voice it or challenge it. And it's only as I grew up, especially when I went to uni and beyond that, I began to look at aspects of my childhood and think, ah, that was really bad.
What [00:10:30] happened to me? at times I would say that my child rights were infringed on and there was no one to see that or advocate for me. And it's only as I've now built a life where I am flourishing and I know what love is and I know what acceptances, and I've now developed my own healthy boundaries that I can look back at some of my childhood and say, that was really not right.
That wasn't okay. And there was some amazing, incredible parts to my childhood. There were great individuals. I have cherished [00:11:00] memories for so much of my childhood. But that doesn't, negate the fact that, there were tough times. And because I do so much now in the space of children's social care, it's really important that I'm able to understand where I was let down.
So that I can be an advocate for others and encourage them to know their rights and to use their voice and to have their boundaries from childhood.
there's so many things you've said that I want to, pick up on and ask about. I suppose the first [00:11:30]thing I want to ask about is, was there a time when you realized you felt different from other children?
were you going to sort of normal in inverted comm kind of schools? You know, were you at, at the same school for a, went to state school and were you at the same school for a period of time or was that chopping and changing as well?
Yeah, I moved home and often when I moved home, I moved to school.
I first got permanently excluded when I was seven at Joyce's. [00:12:00] with the moves of growing up in care came different schools. I still remember leaving Joyce's and moving to the Residential Care home, not having a school to go to, but there was this incredible key worker there called Miles.
though he was a shift worker, he made it his goal to get me back into school. at the time I hated him for it because all the other boys in the home didn't go to school. I wanted to be like them, but he was adamant that I needed to be in school and that he really wanted to, set that foundation up for me.
And so, [00:12:30] you know, he got me into school again. He got me into a new primary school. And that might seem trivial, right? Because we're all expected to go to school and it's a given for so many. But in the context of that home, to have this guy show up for me in such a profound way, set the best foundation for me.
And I'm so grateful for him. And there were so many people like him, I suppose, across public life going above and beyond to help people. that is 100% the gold dust of humanity. The stuff that [00:13:00] gives me hope, and certainly helped me with, with my outcome, if you wanna call it that.
Yeah. So it sounds like your time with Joyce Was profound and happy in many ways. I'm just thinking back to the Christmas that you described right at the start in Joyce's house and, and, and, the sort of the surprise presence for you and the way you describe it in your book is so evocative.
I could feel that almost breathless joy [00:13:30] and, disbelief at being given the present that you really wanted, but didn't dream you'd get. What brought that time to an end? What were the circumstances that meant? You had to leave Joyce's
So much of what it means to grow up in care.
I never got a full picture. I was summoned to a meeting with Joyce and a social worker, and I was told that I would have to leave, so I never got. A clear explanation as to why I had to leave, and that was tragic, for me as a kid. And I've [00:14:00] since been in touch with Joyce, as an adult, and I still don't really know the answer to that question.
I'm at peace with the fact that I dunno everything about my own childhood. Because that's the nature of what it is to be care experienced for so many, when you leave care, you get your care files and a lot of that information is redacted because, the authors are trying to protect, third party people.
That makes sense.
Yeah,
even just that access to your own story, it's [00:14:30] so filtered and fragmented and there were so many question marks that remain that in a sense. I've been really intentional about forging my own identity moving forward from the care system. It's it, for a long time it really grd, you know, that I didn't know why Joyce let me go.
what I had to be okay with is the fact that I was her foster child and once my placement or my time there had ended, she had moved [00:15:00] on. just talking about being moved between homes or not knowing why someone doesn't want to look after you anymore.
All of that breeds trauma. And if it's not treated, if it's not treated or tended to, it can breed, a sense of abandonment and rejection and all of this stuff. In my opinion, this has a hand in why so many. Young people leaving care struggle, why their outcomes are for many, not good, negative, [00:15:30] tragic.
it's really important that we're able to, reform the care system. We're able to inject life lasting relationships. We're able to help children navigate the challenges of the system because if we can improve the care system, we can improve outcomes for the young people.
don't worry about sounding campaigning. I get campaigning on this podcast all the time for lots of different reasons. How you doing there? How's your cold and your throat? It's okay. you're marching on through. I was just gonna say, [00:16:00] It's very easy. for some people, especially at the moment, there seems to be a pushback against the idea of trauma and people talking about their trauma and people saying, really? Yeah. I've seen it a lot.
I've come across it myself a little bit, but it's definitely there in the sort of, we need to, we weren't like this before, we need to just get on with stuff. Right, right. Yeah. and I don't think that's always the worst message. sometimes we do need to go, I'm not gonna let that define [00:16:30] me and I'm gonna get on with it, but.
There are people who think that trauma is over there and has nothing to do with them. Why should they worry about it? the work I'm doing with a couple of charities at the moment is highlighting that trauma costs us all in society. we might not think it, but we are all paying financially the cost of trauma.
just talking about children who've been abused, it costs. In the [00:17:00] uk something like 30 billion a year. All of the ripples of things that those people as they become adults go through and the support they need and the things that happen to them and because of their trauma.
You know, in terms of crime or healthcare, families needing extra support, it costs everybody. And so I'm, I have, we can talk for as long as you like about trauma and why it's important that [00:17:30] we. Don't ignore it, and we don't think it's something that happens to other people.
there was a bit of research I was looking into just a couple of months ago about, people in prison there was a study done in Welsh prisons, a few years ago, the findings were as stark as something like 90% of the people in prison had at least one adverse childhood experience.
And, you know, you can't ignore that, can you? Whatever that person's [00:18:00] experience has come from, whatever it looks like, we can't ignore the price that. Those individuals are paying and that we all pay ultimately as well.
you mentioned Joyce, you mentioned Miles as well. I'm really interested to know, about these other sort of turning points in your early and formative years. Those other moments where things could have gone one way but went another way [00:18:30] sometimes through people, sometimes through your own agency.
Are there more of those that you can tell me about?
Yeah, for sure. we've already touched on the fact that I moved between schools a lot because I moved homes and I, as I said, got excluded in primary school, permanently excluded, and I'm not. I don't like to make big theories about issues like exclusion, but I certainly don't think I should have been excluded as a looked after child at the age of [00:19:00] seven.
I think that's more on the school I went to than, on me, to be honest, especially now as an adult, given the work I do.
that's what you're describing sounds to me like a failure on their part.
And, there were moments I suppose with that, I certainly struggled at school for a long time.
I actually didn't struggle academically. I got bored a lot at school. It was more behavior. I didn't have the soft skills. For a long time to navigate the classroom. no one had taught me discipline. [00:19:30] I didn't know what active listening was. I didn't trust adults because Joyce, let me go. you don't need to be an expert in psychology.
You don't need to be a therapist to know that I'm gonna have a problem with adults given That the one woman I trusted didn't want me anymore. So the idea of trusting a teacher was not on the cards for me for such a long time. I had behavioral issues and it was just, unmet needs really, is what I had.
But no one seemed to be able to meet those needs. [00:20:00] that said, I wasn't academically unable. I just got bored. So I got in trouble. But I never flunked, academically, I always did the bare minimum and got a decent result. to your question. Secondary school. I remember my GCSE years being told by my head teacher, Mr.
Perry, I'll never forget him. He said to me that I was on my final warning. if I got another incident, I was gonna get kicked outta my secondary school during my GCSE years. 'cause they were really important years [00:20:30] and he didn't want me to distract other students. So there I am during my GCSC years and I have another incident.
And I remember being summoned to his office and he had the letter of exclusion for me and I was like, sir, gimme another chance. he gave me another chance. He could have kicked me out the school on that day, but he didn't. And I went on to be the highest boy achieving boy academically, which I think shocked me in the whole school because I had a lot of these behavioral [00:21:00] issues But I got good grades and ultimately I stayed on for sixth form and ended up going to Cambridge University. And in the book I talk about the battle mentally that I had to even apply because I never thought that would be a space for someone like me, like a mixed race, a black mixed race, south London are in the care system.
I never ever thought that would be the sort of in, I never thought I'd go to university period, you know? But a big turning point was Mr. [00:21:30] Perry giving me another chance.
I can picture that room in that scene.
it was just such, and only retrospectively do I really appreciate the weight of that moment and also the power he had in that moment, my life was in his hands.
If I had got kicked out, I likely would've gone to a pupil referral unit or another form of, alternative provision as the professionals call it. Or I would've dropped out school altogether. I certainly wouldn't have gone to Cambridge University, but just [00:22:00] by being given a second chance It meant that I was able to confound his and other people's expectations.
And he had, some years ago now, he had a retirement ceremony. He was leaving the school. And given that I was, I dunno if you can swear on this podcast. Yeah. But I was the little itch in my year. And, he had I was the only one from my year to be invited to his retirement thing. And he said that keeping me on, giving me another chance was one of the best decisions he had ever made.
I know what it's to [00:22:30] be excluded as a young, child. And I also know what it's to be given in good faith, a second chance. The decision to apply to Cambridge when I nearly didn't was a massive turning point.
I remember, um, the open day for Cambridge was on a Saturday, and my foster family at the time didn't want to take me to the open day, and I mentioned it to my social worker at the time. she decided without me asking on her day off that she would take me [00:23:00] to the open day. Had she not done that, I wouldn't have applied to Cambridge.
But because she took me and I was able to breathe in the air and get a sense of the vibe and all of that, I applied. my life was so reliant on. Professionals. My life was so reliant on adults who worked in the public sector, and I can, I can see so many moments where it's a professional and their decision to just go above and beyond that really puts me on a positive [00:23:30] trajectory.
And I just think about how many young people don't get that. Don't get the social worker who's gonna take 'em to the open day because it's not technically a part of their job. Or how many young people who are struggling who may not have, a head teacher who believes in second chances, and what that implies for their outcome.
We need compassionate schools. We need a compassionate children's care system There were terrible people in my journey. And I, you know, again, going back to my book, not that I'm trying to promote it, it's [00:24:00] been out a year, but I, you know, I, I talk about some of those people who were actually, detrimental for me.
But then there were some great individuals who just by simple decisions changed my outlook and where I am now.
Hey everyone.
Just before we get back to the episode, I wonder if I could ask you a favor.
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. I want you to plug your book because I'm really looking forward to reading the rest of it, and I want other people to read it as well. I cannot imagine what it's like for anyone who went to Oxford or Cambridge.
I've got lots of friends who did. But like you say, especially from a state school still, I think especially from a state school, it does feel a bit kind of over there, doesn't it? with your background and everything that was going on for you, what was it like when you got a place there?
How did that feel?
Well, it's interesting you say [00:26:00] state school because it, yes. I went to a state school and my school wasn't an Oxbridge producing, like a rearing school. I think it was like the first ever to study history, for example. I might be wrong on that, but certainly, no, none of my teachers had sent kids to Oxford to study history.
on top of the state school fact, of course, mark is the fact that I'm care experienced. from the age of 15 or so, my social worker has a duty to get me ready [00:26:30] to leave care by the age of 18. So they're asking me, can I cook? Can I pay utility bills? Do I know what utility bills are? Do I know what I'm gonna do when I turn 18 to make money?
do I know how to bid for a council property? And the list goes on. on one hand I'm thinking about, ah. These GCSEs and what I wanna do when I leave school. But then I'm also thinking about the immediacy of becoming an adult and leaving care. it's kind of, an insurmountable thing to do the two at the same time to [00:27:00] think about higher education whilst thinking about the immediacy of survival, which is what you're essentially doing, right?
Yeah. When you are parent leave care. So, the state school factor made Cambridge hard enough in terms of it feeling unattainable, but more so was the fact that I'm thinking about leaving care and I'm being injected, I'm being injected with a steep fair about what leaving care could mean for someone like me.
And even when I, got in, my local authority was saying [00:27:30] things to me like, well, we can't cover your accommodation at Cambridge because, you know. People like you are meant to get a council flat at 18. So either you take the council flat in, stay in London, or you go to Cambridge, but during the holidays you won't have a home in London, so we're gonna have to ship you between Airbnbs for your holidays.
So that's the kind of messaging I was given, we can't support you if you want to go to a university outside of London yet. All the while, once I'd got in, they made me the [00:28:00] poster boy of the care system. Look, we've got this kid who's got into Cambridge, yet they weren't willing to support me.
so pressuring with those challenges posed by my local authority, and the immediacy of leaving care, I almost rejected the offer. Not because I was intimidated by Cambridge or insecure about my academic potential, but I genuinely thought I, I will not be able to afford it.
So, it was enough being from South London as a brown boy wanting to study history [00:28:30] at Oxbridge, but then there's just a machinery and the bureaucracy, what it means to be a looked after child trying to do this thing.
And the fact that it's not even a pathway, you know, it's not like it's not a hundred
percent.
that's not what people do.
No, it was never, you know, my social workers aren't looking at me when I'm 15 thinking one day he might go to Cambridge. They're thinking so many of our young people get evicted from their council flights that we need to make sure he doesn't get evicted. Success was me not getting [00:29:00] evicted.
It was me getting a job in retail, which there's nothing wrong with by the way, but there wasn't a real investment in my aspirations. It was only when I got in touch with my local mp that the local authority then said, oh, we will support you both by giving you your council flat and covering the rent when you're not there until the age of 21, whilst helping you with your bursary and whatnot at university.
But the fact that at [00:29:30] 17 I had to go to my local mp, it's something that, I've been praised for over the years. I was resilient. I was resourceful. I took initiative. But now, frankly, mark, I just say, why the hell should any kid have to be that resilient, have to do that? Like, why?
why is that something that I'm celebrated for? The local authority should have been resilient for me. My social workers care workers and the PA should have been resilient for me. And it felt like getting into Cambridge is something I'd done. Despite [00:30:00] social services, not because of social services.
Yeah. I shudder when I think about how many young people in care are not pursuing their aspirations because of the bureaucracy of care and how many of them don't believe that their goals are attainable. Not because, they're not talented or capable, but because maybe there's been an apathetic social worker or a social worker who's just not resourced well enough to support them properly.
I can't believe some of what you're telling me
I'm in my mid [00:30:30] thirties, but I'm, 'cause I'm a journalist, I'm a broadcaster. I've made documentaries about the care system. Yeah. So many people contact me 'cause of my book and I'm given the most incredible opportunity to speak to local authorities across the country.
I know for a fact that. These issues persist, right? That you've got people on the cusp of leaving care, not feeling empowered to pursue what they want to do. And for me, talent as we both, I'm [00:31:00] sure, agree on talent isn't based on where you grew up. Talent isn't, it's not, determined by your starting life.
Talent is indiscriminate and it pisses me off that there will be many care experience, young people not being given the chance to pursue and explore their talents because of the immediacy of life and survival and the fear of eviction and what turning 18 could imply for them, and ev and all of that stuff like that just shouldn't, that stuff should not, [00:31:30] be the resounding noise in the life of a child.
Or a teenager, they should be able to dream big and be aspirational and have genuine dreams for their future, knowing that the adults around them gonna try and help them get there.
I couldn't agree with you more. You touched upon it there about the work you're doing now in your life now and how that has come from, or in spite of, or because of what happened to you when you were younger and what your life was like.
[00:32:00] Tell me more about your life now and the things you do and how much of it is lemonade from those lemons?
It is bonkers my life. It's so bonkers because first and foremost, I'm a broadcaster. So I've been a senior reporter for BBC news, which if you had said to me at 16. You are going to work for the BBCI would've been like, what are you smoking?
Because it just was not something on my radar. I'd never seen anyone like me in the media, certainly not working in [00:32:30] current affairs on news. It was Trevor McDonald, he is, dialect is very different to mine and he was the closest image in terms of representation.
But I definitely never saw or knew of anyone care experience working in current affairs media. so yeah, I do that. I'm a report for the One Show, so I'm part of the One Show family. And I present a couple of, BBC one daytime returning series. basically I do a lot of reporting and presenting for the BBC, which I just love, [00:33:00] I love making telly, I love reporting, I love interviewing people, asking questions.
My first big story was Grenfell. at the time I was, a researcher on the Victoria DHA show and the editor I remember the 4th of June, 2017. I got a call at around 6:00 AM from my boss. my phone was on and she was like, there's a fire in Kensington. A car's gonna come and take you to the tower and you've got to [00:33:30] find survivors and people from the community to speak to BBC news to Victoria on air at 9:00 AM I remember rocking up to, we all now know it as Grenville Tower, you know, the most famous tower block probably in the country.
And, being mortified by the sort of devastation spliced in with the world media spliced in with the humanitarian trend. There was still This smoggy ambiance in the air, and you could, you know, the air wasn't clean it was very hard to [00:34:00] articulate, but it was just a very profound, almost apocalyptic vibe to it.
It was very otherworldly for me. I had to find survivors who would speak to our presenter. And I remember you had all these famous correspondence there. More traditional, yeah. News correspondence and presenters. As I said, I wasn't what, I wasn't in front of the camera at this point. I was helping produce the show and was at the time quite reticent and reluctant about talking [00:34:30] about my care experience at the BBCI.
I kind of thought that I had to be a bit more middle class presenting and somehow sharing my care experience, experience wasn't a way to serve me in my career progress. But covering Grenfell. I began to realize that survivors trusted me and they were speaking to me and they were preferring to work with me than other more traditional broadcasters.
And I had so much favor with that [00:35:00] community and getting these survivors to speak to BBC news that my editor was like, tell she, she said to me that you need to start making reports on air about greenfeld. So I went from being a producer to an on air reporter, with that story. And it's quite an adverse, it's quite a weird thing to have your career merit from adversity.
I always struggled with that, and that's the really hard grueling thing about current affairs for me, is that you are somehow [00:35:30] trying to leverage trauma. You're trying to leverage from people's trauma. You're trying to make content. It's, I've always struggled with it, but the takeaway from Grenfell for me was that the reason why these survivors spoke to me more than others is because there was an unspoken connection.
Yeah. In terms of my lived experience, my care experience, they could relate to me. There was an implicit sense of trust that I didn't even have to articulate. There was just a knowing and it was because of grandfather. I became a [00:36:00] lot more just noisy about my lived experience. I realized that actually there's power in this, in this world of broadcasting.
It serves me and, you know, I became a full-time, I got promoted, you know, to senior reporter because of, I would say, 'cause of my Feld coverage. And, um, I began to make documentaries about the care system. I began to originate stories and. All of a sudden this thing that I was kind of ashamed of my childhood and the thing that I tried [00:36:30] to always move away from, I now be, I began to see it as a source of creativity for journalism and broadcasting.
And I was coming up with ideas based on my lived experience that I just couldn't, could not have been taught. I could not have learned it. And so I suppose, you know, to your point about making a lemon from, lemonade from a lemon, it's really knowing that actually all the shit that I went through, all the trauma, all the stuff that I had to navigate [00:37:00] in, that was life experience.
And there were insights and story ideas that I could generate. And so I really began to lean into that, despite initially being quite reluctant to do so. And you know. Some of that work. You know, I remember, um, for example it was in my mid twenties that I learned that I had siblings. 'cause my social workers didn't tell me as a kid.
And so it was that, [00:37:30] it was my own personal story that compelled me to, um, do a bit of research more broadly about how sibling cares are affected in the care system. That letter for BBC three documentary and that documentary did remarkably well. But the biggest accolades for me from that documentary were when charities got in touch, say like one charity in particular.
Quorum got in touch saying that they, because of my documentary, had decided to set up a sibling reunification [00:38:00] service Oh wow. For estranged siblings in the care system. The children's commissioner for England, Rachel Desa, she, um, launched her own big, you know. Inquiry into the state of sibling relationships and care.
It led to a parliamentary, uh, you know, a a, a labor mp forwarded emotion in the House of Commons because of my documentary. She bloody referenced my documentary in The House of Commons with like Diane Abbott sitting in the background dozing off. The point is who [00:38:30] would've ever thought that me, not really known about my siblings in care would've like, led to a national conversation and informed the work that charities and local authorities do.
And so I, I just love how the trauma of my time in care continues to be used to motivate change across the sector. And for a long time, again, it was completely unintentional and unwitting, like it wasn't something I was trying to do, but I really do believe in the power of. Telling our stories now, [00:39:00]I've really be the value in it and using our voices and also being the author of our own narrative, because for a long time, social workers wrote about me and wrote what happened to me, and they held the pen.
And even writing my book was a real way for me to reclaim my voice and center my voice in my own story. So I'm, I'm all for making the best of a shit situation and, you know, using trauma to bring about something positive.
I, I [00:39:30] have no doubt whatsoever that you, and you know, it's been my experience as well since I've been doing this work.
that people and, and charities have reached out and it's been great connecting with them and, and them work, going on to work with them. But I've, I've no doubt that you talking about your experience just helps so many people. To feel less alone in their own experience and oh my
God it's something I couldn't have imagined.
Like I wrote my book last year or it [00:40:00] published last year. And um, even now on pretty much a daily basis, I will get people just telling me how reading my book has literally changed their lives or others just saying how it's performed, what they do. I've had, I remember a 17-year-old, I'll never forget it last year, just DMing me saying, for the first time I feel seen.
Yeah. Like. That's major. And then like foster carers saying it's changed how they do what they do or teachers and you know, I don't [00:40:30] think you go about writing a book because you wanna necessarily be influential or influence people. I certainly didn't write it for that reason. It was a very personal thing as to why I did it.
But it is such a gift, isn't it? Yeah. When you see your work has positively impacted someone else
and helped someone. Yeah. My last question that I like to ask everyone is, what would you say, thinking about lemons and lemonade, what would you say to those people listening to this who've [00:41:00]maybe even had a similar experience to you?
What would you say about, you know, what is possible in terms of making something good come out of those negative things?
I would say to not let your dreams and aspirations be determined by the hard stuff you went through is really important, number one, to not cap your potential or your vision based on the hardships you went [00:41:30] through. Because I think it's really easy to do that. It would've been really easy for me to exclude myself from applying to Cambridge because of what I went through as a looked after child and just because of the demographic of of my life, you know, care kid in South London.
But I'm so glad that I found the means mentally to apply, and I just encourage people, number one, to really not let their starting life or the things they've gone through. Adverse stuff to, [00:42:00] um, define their aspiration. And I think the second thing, you know, in terms of what we just spoke about, I'd say to people, it is possible for the trauma you are going through to one day become a source of inspiration for someone else.
Yeah. And I think when you're going through trauma, it doesn't feel like that. And it, you be, it feels insurmountable and it, it's, you know, you, you cannot see a brighter day. But I, I could never have predicted, you know, navigating the care system that one day, the insights [00:42:30] of, and the things I, I learned as a, as I looked after child, would one day serve to help and inspire other people.
So I'd say to someone who's got a lemon right now, going through a bit of a hard time, I'd say to them like, navigate it as best as you can and believe that one day you can leverage that stuff. To one day, help someone. It is possible.
That's, that's amazing. I can't thank you enough for this conversation.
Oh, pleasure. And for that, and for those [00:43:00] sort of final thoughts there, you've articulated that beautifully. Thank you.
A huge, huge, huge thank you to Ashley for that, for that chat, for that conversation. I'm, I was so moved by it when we were talking by the things he was telling me and I. he mentioned his own children looking at them thinking about himself at their age, and I think it's impossible not to [00:43:30] do actually, to, to put yourself in his place and to try to imagine for those of us who didn't experience that, what it was like, not having that automatic expected relationship of someone who's there for you no matter what, what Ashley's gone on to achieve is astonishing.
I think the work he's done and the work he's doing is so important. Do ifhe can try and get hold of a copy. I've looked after. It's a brilliant read and [00:44:00] thank you so much for joining us for the conversation. I'll see you next time on Making Lemonade. Making Lemonade is presented and produced by me.
Marco Sullivan. Music is by Dan Brees and additional support by Ian Cullen.